Hatred & Division | Cal Jernigan | Beyond The Lines Ep. 1

Our world is filled with so much hate and division. When we disagree with someone, we can often demonize them as well.

How do we find the antidote for this poison of contempt in our lives?

Join us on the Beyond The Lines podcast with special guest Cal Jernigan as we learn how to go beyond the lines and love others despite our differences and disagreements.

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

Transcript

Jon Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Beyond The Lines podcast! In a world filled with so much hate and division we want to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw on our lives, where we feel like that is our limit. We can't listen past this line. We can't love past this line. We can't understand someone who is on the other side of the line, but our goal with this podcast is to treat all people with the dignity that they deserve,

even if we disagree with them. Today, I'm joined by my co-hosts. Clayton Eddleman. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:23] Hello! 

Good to be here. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:24] Yeah. So good to see you Clayton. And we also have Cal Jernigan on the podcast. He is the lead pastor of Central Christian Church in Arizona. He is an incredible leader and he has gained an incredible array of knowledge and wisdom when it comes to walking beyond the line.

Welcome Cal, thank you for being here. 

Cal Jernigan: [00:00:39] Thank you. It's great to be with you.

Jon Miller: [00:00:41] Awesome. So today's podcast is going to be about hatred and division, you know, really easy topics. Yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:49] It's light stuff that's for sure.

Cal Jernigan: [00:00:50] Light, light, light. Okay, good enough. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:52] We should have lots of laughs during this this podcast, so really, really heavy topics.

But we want to talk about why they matter and why does it matter that we have this division in our lives? And obviously this is what the whole podcast is basically about is how do we get beyond that? How do we get beyond those lines of hatred and division in our lives? So Cal recently in a message, you said, we share the human race, we share humanity, we've got to care.

So can you tell me about, more about what you meant by that? Well, why do we have to care and why is it important? 

Cal Jernigan: [00:01:24] Yeah. Well, You don't at the basic level, you have to just kind of look at the world we're now living in. And most of us would say we've never experienced anything like this. You know, we, as a country are more divided than we've ever been in our lifetime.

We you know, we've gone through the most contentious election. With, you know, really difficult outcomes of people really being vitriolic towards one another at, you know, at some point you have to look at this and go, is this good? Are we better? Did we somehow did this enhance our society?

And in most thinking people would go, of course not this. This is a disaster. Now the problem is, is we're becoming very comfortable with it. It's kind of the way it is. It's the culture we live and you just go. Yeah. And so we hate. You hear more and more talk in our conversations. Just so people talking about a potential civil war as if, as if we were to fight a civil war, that the, you know, the, the.

The outcome of that would be anything, but just a total disaster. So we were becoming very comfortable with this idea of animosity towards one another. And there's lots of reasons why, you know, we see we seen, seen the rise of social media, where we can say the most demeaning  things with anonymity.

And we can hide behind, you know, courage that comes from being behind a microphone.

Keyboard courage.

 And just, you know, I'm kind of free from responsibility. When do I all that to say the world is changing and most of us would go, it's not getting better. And so what you know, we believe it's, this was not the way we were meant to be.

And so even when you talk about, you know, the quote, you reference the human race, the human race, there's one human race. There is one human race. There's one race is called human. And what we've done though, is we have tried to slice that into as many different variants as possible, which sounds like, well, that sounds wise, but what it does is it pits this group against that group and that group against that group.

And then you also start ranking as to which are the superior and which are the inferior. You started doing all of this, and you're going to have a world of animosity, which is the world. We now have. I just don't believe that for a moment that this was the world God designed, and that he intended. One human race and we're all, we're all human.

If we keep finding all these things to separate us and differentiate ourselves in a bad way so that we can push somebody to a margin, say they're they're, they're them. They're not us. I just see disaster in our future. So as a church, we're committed to trying to fight that, to deal with it, to try to challenge it and cause people to wake up and realize the price we're paying.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:03:57] Yeah. And so you, you, you're talking about our church and how we're saying, Hey, we want to wake up. We want to. Go at this headstrong. Do you think anyone or the majority of people, do they care that there's so much division or are they just fine saying, Hey, I'm going to be on this side and I'm not going to concede.

Cal Jernigan: [00:04:13] I, I think 

people are deeply concerned, honestly.

I, you know, it's, it's it if you give yourself over to where it's just inevitable that, you know, we're going to hate one another, it's just inevitable. Then inevitably, we're going to hate one another. I really do believe that what's needed our voices to challenge that. And, and, and honestly, to be able to sit in the same space with somebody who has totally divergent political views than you have, that is a skill you have to learn that is not intuitive.

It is not natural. You, you've got to learn how to sit and be sitting in the space, be uncomfortable and listen, and try to understand their point of view. And even if we break this down to this, the basic, and this is not a political podcast, so don't go there. But just the basic differences between Democrats and Republicans.

They're not good guys to get bad guys. There are people have different points of view who have a different answer to the problem of mankind and, and different, you know prescription to how, how do you solve the problems of society? They're not. These are the good guys, and these are the bad guys. Now we love to make the other guys the bad guys.

Of course, we're the good guys and everyone who agrees with us. We're good guys. All it does though, is it just teaches us that uh, those who are like us for the good and those who are different are the bad. This is the exact opposite of what we're trying to teach in our church.  Loving beyond the lines, get to where you can sit with somebody who disagrees and you could actually learn something from them.

Jon Miller: [00:05:37] Hm. And and like you said, kind of a recent podcast there's good and bad guys on either side of the line, Republicans and Democrats. There's good and bad guys on either side. And there's a, you know, a lot of people in our, in our humanness, we, we, there's a lot of people who are self-serving and, and only going for their human desires, what they want and not so much for the people, but that's the reality on either side there's people like that on either side of the line, but sometimes we just say, no, don't know the whole party.

That is what they do, you know, or the whole, you know, Democrat, the whole Republicans, they don't care about other people. They only want their thing. And we can like demonize them. 

Cal Jernigan: [00:06:16] Yeah. Well, and one of the realities is, is that we tend to caricature what we don't know. We mock and caricature people we don't identify with.

So whoever's in the other camp, they're a bunch of idiots. Those are a bunch of fools which are morons or whatever you would want to say there. And, and we described them in such a way that nobody. Nobody who is in that camp would ever describe themself. And, and they then would describe us in a way that nobody in our camp would describe ourselves, which just means that we are really talking past each other.

You're you're not in any way communicating. I think that the truth of the matter is, is that if, if you so if you and I disagree. And you have a point of view. And I have a point of view. If I could describe your point of view, where you would acknowledge you, nod your head and acknowledge go, yeah, that's exactly right.

Then I've done you a service because I've listened to it long enough to be able to understand what you said. And I can say it to somebody. The problem is that's not what we do. I've got to make you look as stupid, as foolish as you know, Yeah, a bit, the biggest imbecile so that my crowd will agree with me because I don't agree with you.

Jon Miller: [00:07:21] Right.

Cal Jernigan: [00:07:21] And this is, this is the humanizing thing that we do when we start letting division start to kick in. I w I I'm, I'm not going to represent you well, I just don't believe this was the way people ought to treat people. And I don't think that's all we were designed for.

Jon Miller: [00:07:35] Hmm, you know, I totally disagree with that.

So I wasn't listening at all.

Cal Jernigan: [00:07:39] I'm sure you weren't. Which is why I used you as an example of an imbecile.

Jon Miller: [00:07:48] Oh yeah. Yeah. That is great stuff. And I actually do very much agree with that. It's hard to do though.

Cal Jernigan: [00:07:54] It is very hard.

Jon Miller: [00:07:54] It's hard to listen because I think our first reaction when we're hearing somebody who we disagree with is to immediately formulate a response that that is in contrast to there's. Like this, you know, I disagree and this is why, and we don't actually hear everything that they said.

Cal Jernigan: [00:08:11] And they don't hear why you disagree.

Jon Miller: [00:08:12] Right.

Cal Jernigan: [00:08:13] Because they're formulating their response to the fact that you didn't hear what they said. So they're going to say it again. I'm gonna say it a little bit differently and a little bit louder. And, and then you're going to say what you said a little bit different, a little bit louder and we're back to talking beyond each other.

I think it's really hard though, because. Again, just as you, as you just referenced when you're listening to somebody and all you're doing is thinking about what you're about to say, you're not listening, you're just not listening because if you're just formulating your response, you're not in the moment you're, you're getting beyond the moment.

You're somehow, you know, you've transcended the moment you're above it and beyond it out there. And now here here's the, the snarky comeback that's gonna, you know, shut them up. If I want to understand. Your point of view and why you believe what you believe. I, there is a basic human courtesy I have to extend to you, which says that you're somebody of, you're a person of worth, you're a person of value.

You have a point of view. It's different than mine, but if I can sit with you and again, and we talked about that space, that awkward space, where you're describing what you really believe and why you believe it. If I show you the basic human respect that you deserve. I believe with everything in me. I could say something in response to that.

As long as again, I understood what you said and you would hear me in a way that you would never hear me if we just talk past each other. And all we're doing is just back in the echo chamber back in the, so I, again, I, I do believe that these are the answers to the big conundrums of our culture. We've got to figure out how to talk to one another again, and we have lost the ability

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:48] You know, with that.

Just kind of listen to what you're saying, this ability to listen to someone actively and to not just push them aside. To me it sounds like, Hey, this is, it's a higher calling. It's the higher road. And if we look at our ultimate model as Christians of, Hey, what who's given us, the the path to the higher road, it's really Jesus.

And it makes me think of this quote. You said, I want to read it to you.

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:12] I'm getting 

nervous about these quotes. I'm going to pay more attention to things I say, I didn't know they'd be quoted.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:16] No, it's all good.

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:17] Now, what did I say?

Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:18] This one's good. You said that they're going to know us by our love or Jesus will go unknown.

What exactly...

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:26] First off, that was brilliant. Whoever said 

that...

Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:27] That's a good one. 

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:28] That was incredible.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:29] I'm going to get that framed in my office.

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:31] Yeah. So the bottom line, it goes back to John 13:34 and 35, which is where the whole love beyond, you know, the whole love beyond concept comes from John 13:34 and 35. You have to love differently than everyone else loves, or your love is there's no distinction to it.

So when Jesus said that by this, they will know that you're a follower of mine. He used, he used a very clear concept, a very tangible teaching moment when you love this kind of way. And the kind of love that Jesus loved was a sacrificial lay down your life. Get over yourself, humble yourself, you know, kind of love that is not what the world sees.

That is not what the world experiences and tragically, as we've said before, that's not what the church tends to emulate. It doesn't demonstrate that it's. We're not really good at doing this, but Jesus said, when you get this down, it will be the distinctive that sets you apart from everybody else.

And I, I believe with everything in me, the world is looking for somebody to take Jesus seriously and love like that. And if we don't, he won't be known. Why would anyone know him? This is how people will know me. We don't love, they, he doesn't get known. It wouldn't demonstrate anything. But I also think if you go back through church history and you go, you know, literally from the time of Christ to now, it is in those incredible moments where the church didn't do what the rest of the world was doing.

So in any of the plagues or whatever, when the church would love with compassion, care beyond reason, you know, literally sacrifice himself for the sake of others. That is when you see the pivot points in history, where all of a sudden the world started going. I don't know what their. I don't know what they're having, whatever that is,

I want some of that. And that's where the big headway was made at. But in our day and age, somehow we think we're exempt or above that now. We have to love differently than we've loved. 

Jon Miller: [00:12:23] Man that reminds me. And this is a paraphrase of a quote that Gandhi said, he said something along the lines of like, I love your Jesus, but I can't stand the Christians.

Cal Jernigan: [00:12:32] Yeah. And that's and that's, and that is what he said in it. And he meant what he said. The, the concepts are awesome. You know, the concepts of Christianity is an awesome concept. The problem is, is if you know, Jesus lived it, we, we, you know, most of us would not argue that, you know, he got it right. And he set the example.

So many of us get it so wrong. And then we don't. Wonder, well, how come they don't love him? Why don't they believe in him? It w it's us. We we've made him unbelievable. And I don't mean that in a complimentary way, we've made them unbelievable because we don't take the principles that he taught us and we don't apply them.

And it's really, really hard because you can do church for the rest of your life and not apply the  principles and teachings of Jesus can go to, you can go to church. And a church can function for the rest of its life and not really pay the price of being a follower. And most people wouldn't know the difference.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:13:26] Yeah. When you, when you talk about it or even a follower of Christ, not, not diving in deeply not really  jumping in. I think one of the aspects that plays into it is fear. Is saying, ah, you know, I hear about Jesus. I know what he was about, but I'm kinda scared to jump in. And you know, when our fears get the best of us, our wisdom gets the worst of us.

That's a huge talking point out of. One of your messages this summer, but what do you think, how does fear play into this conversation of, of blocking us from loving beyond the lines?

Cal Jernigan: [00:13:59] Yeah, 

that's 

a great question. Clayton. Fear. What fear always does is it constricts and it restricts. It constricts. It, it fear shrinks everything.

So instead of this being this big old bad world that we get to go investigate it's so awesome. And I mean bad in a good way, you know, there's awesome world. Fear is where. You, you, I'm not doing this and I'm not doing that and I'm not doing it. And fear just shrinks your soul. It shrinks your heart is shrinks, your courage.

It draws you back. And you know, fear, uh, in the Bible 365 times in some form or another God said, don't be afraid. Fear not, you know, get out the, go for it. 365 times. God has to remind us in again. One a day. Quit being so afraid, quit being quit, being what happened in your heart shrunk. So get out there and go.

So what happens is, is when fear reigns and it's, and it's in the driver's seat, you're going backwards. Faith. It was always going to push you out, is going to push you on, is going to push you up. It's going to push forward its own. Faith is always going to move you that way. Fear is always going to do the opposite.

So where fear reigns. You're you're, you're not, you're not going anywhere. You're not gonna experience much. And that's where again, where do you learn? You learn when you get outside your fears, beyond the lines of your fear, get out there, and then you can start to discover what other people know that you've never heard of.

You've never known. You've never experienced, but fear is what's going to keep you. It's the big wall. It's the barrier that separates you from the possibility of what could be. And, and again, if you just want a very small world just live in your own head, in your own echo chamber, you own, you know, this is what I believe and just live there and you can, you can, and people do.

To me. It's, again, it's a tragedy because there's so much more, you could have experienced that. You just didn't because you didn't have the basic willingness to obey God who said fear not and go. And so we, we, we just settled for so much less.

Jon Miller: [00:16:05] And I, I love the imagery of what you said with the, the shrinking of your soul, the shrinking of that, like.

What does it look like when you don't have that? And you really have a growth, you know, instead of a shrinking, what does that look like for a person?

Cal Jernigan: [00:16:19] Yeah. Well, again, I would love to say I'm a model of that, but I'm not. Because I have my own fears I have to deal with and dragons I got to slay.

Jon Miller: [00:16:27] Yeah.

Cal Jernigan: [00:16:27] But I think what happens is, is that the word would be vibrancy.

The world becomes vibrant. You know, this thing got created is amazing. All of us have only experienced a slice of it. How big of a slice. Yeah, it's very variable. It's, you know, you, you, you know, everyone, everyone would, I've only experienced this much, but of what the, of the array of, of what God's opened up, the possibilities, what he's given us, it's literally infinite and it's it's mind blowing.

It goes so wide. So. Know the question is, is how content are you going to be with how little I just really believe. We believe that we follow a God of abundance, a God who's incredibly creative, a God who wants us to experience things that we've never experienced. And, and yet to get across the line, you have to push through your fear.

That fear is the thing is always going to restrict you. And, and you'll learn a lot more you'll experience a lot more and color will come into your life in a very positive way. You'll see it. You can get to settle for black and white and many people do. And I'm like going, why? Why?

Clayton Eddleman: [00:17:28] No. I mean, it reminds me of the story

you told us a little bit in episode zero of just being in Israel, Palestine, and wanting to go, or having somebody want you to go into Bethlehem. And you're saying, Whoa, hold on. That's scary. That's a scary idea. That's uh, an interesting place, but you know, I think part of that too, is sometimes we hold a contempt inside us that we don't even maybe realize or recognize and contempt as an ugly emotion.

That's absolutely destroying our ability to hear someone else's perspective. And so how do you see that playing out right now? I mean, you've talked about contempt. It, it exists in political spectrums. It exists in just family dynamics or just whatnot. How, how do we address that? How do you see it playing out?

Cal Jernigan: [00:18:11] Well, when you say contempt, I hear disgust. That's that's the word?

Jon Miller: [00:18:15] Yeah

Cal Jernigan: [00:18:16] it's just that basic disgust that you have for some other human being and. Know, let's be honest. You, you learned that when you were a kid,. You know that some, some kid took something of you and, you know, you loathe their existence. You know, you, you had fantasies of how you're going to meet him after school and beat him up, you know, whatever.

And I think we all come on, we all probably had had these kinds of memories.

Jon Miller: [00:18:36] I think 

I was the kid...

Cal Jernigan: [00:18:37] but there's 

just this thing within us that again, good guy, bad guy. The good guys, we, we have nothing, but, you know, virtue and goodness for, and the bad guys are the people that we should hold with contempt, which means they, they disgust us.

They're they're the, you know, evil embodied. And the reality of it is that there is we, we should be far more disgusted with ourselves than we are. We should look a little closer to, you know, what's like what's going on inside of us. It's just always easier to find that, that the person or the object and make them, and again, follow history, you know, they're, they're, they're the problem, it's them, but it's just this feeling like that person does not have a right to exist on the face of the planet earth. And they do.

And, and it it's. So you talked about politics, but let's talk about race. That is what's behind race racism. It's this disgust, but nobody wants to say it. Nobody wants to come out and go. I have these feelings of contempt for, and then, you know, put the, put whatever, put the person, you know, and all of that is it's just pat, we've learned how to package this in such a way that we can live with it.

Contempt for another human being is the sense that they don't have a right to be here. The problem is. Every one of us, every person you have ever locked eyes with, it was made in the image of God and is loved by God. Every single one. You've not met one, you've not met one outside the perimeter. One outside

you know, God's grace. One beyond hope you've never met one. Cause there's not one. We put people in those categories. And we do it. And then, and then we justify it by our reasoning. Like God agrees with us. Those people are contemptible. Those people are truly disgusting. I don't think that we have a chance of making a difference in a world where we're doing that to one another and Jesus died for every one of us.

Jesus died for the people you like, he died for people you don't like, for people you feel he should have died, for people you feel he shouldn't have died for. He died for all of us. We would be smart to learn, to see people the way God sees them. And I really believe that we would be far more disgusted, follow this, disgusted with our own disgust.

If we saw it the way God saw it. But we don't, we justify our disgust and God's going no.

Jon Miller: [00:20:59] If contempt 

is a poison, right. That poison us against other people, is there an antidote to that poison that we can take?

Cal Jernigan: [00:21:07] Wow. Well, first off it is a poison, but it's a poison we're putting in ourselves. It's, we're injecting that within ourself.

And we do that. We choose to do that, you know, and, and I don't remember exactly how the quote goes, but, you know hatred is, is, you know, Wishing somebody would die while you're, while you're swallowing the poison or something to that effect, you know, it's not going to affect them. It's going to hurt you.

And I, you know, I would just, I would just think that whenever you start finding yourself going, you know, so-and-so just should not be there. They don't have a right to exist. I think the thing that you have to do is you have to counter that and I believe the spirit of God is right alongside you to help you counter that, to help you to understand you are, you are treading where you should never tread.

You are treating a person, created an image of God as if they were not. And again, we believe we can do all this with immunity. I think one of the things that Jesus made crystal clear is how you treat people. You know, the things you say, the things that come out of here, these are the things Jesus said that we just kind of blow off.

Like every you'll be accountable for every word that comes out of your mouth? He didn't mean that. Not like every word. Yes every word that comes out of your mouth. We just think that we can say all these things and, you know, and, and again, I think Jesus comes along and you know, has parables to teach and, and, you know, he, he lays down these, these incredible moments of just going, Hey You know, that Samaritan that you love to hate, I'm going to make him the hero of the story.

He's he's better than the priests and the Levi.

Jon Miller: [00:22:38] Yeah. And then he makes them say it like, and who was the good guy?

Cal Jernigan: [00:22:41] Who was the good guy?

Jon Miller: [00:22:42] Like, I guess 

that one guy.

Cal Jernigan: [00:22:44] Yeah.

Jon Miller: [00:22:44] The one that helped him, you know.

Cal Jernigan: [00:22:46] And you look again, you look at the life and the leading of Jesus and you just go, it's not hard to see the way he treated people.

And by the way, which again, I think most of us are aware who is he most. Who was he most disgusted with? Those religious people who are most disgusted with everybody else. And, and who is he least disgusted with the people who were disgusted with themselves! I mean, connect the dots, you know, this lowly tax gatherer, this, this poor prostitute woman, this poor, you know, the sinner who, who just literally felt horrible for who they were.

Jesus would come alongside them and love them. They showed no. No distance. It's the full of themselves. Self-righteous, you know, contemptible to everybody else because they're out and we're in. That's where Jesus, that's what drew Jesus' desire. I think we could take a cue from that. Get a clue from the cue.

You can quote that.

Jon Miller: [00:23:44] Awesome. You once mentioned a quote from CS Lewis and I love it. He talked about having this concept of a second friend. And you brought this concept up recently. Yup. Can you explain what is a second friend?

Cal Jernigan: [00:23:57] Yeah. Well, a first friend would be the people that again, that you're just absolutely comfortable...

you guys are first friends of mine. I'm very comfortable with you. I don't feel like in any way. I don't feel it anyway. We're sitting in 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:24:07] I've made it.

Cal Jernigan: [00:24:08] You made it, you know, I don't feel like there's any you were sitting in a room, you know, we have a basic understanding of, you know, who we are and kind of, we, we, we, we, we share commonality and some beliefs, you know, kind of the big ones, the major ones. You might individually believe things

I don't, I might believe things, you know, but. Your first friends. Sure. I'm very, you're very comfortable. First friends were the ones that you would, you know, really quickly invite over or like, Hey, let's go fishing. Let's go fishing. You know, first friends are easy. Second friends are the people in your life.

In, in the context of CS Lewis, the people in your life that you have to work a little bit harder, you don't have so much in common. And they say things, they just kinda, you just got it all out. Why don't you just say, you just feel like I've got to, I feel like I've got a debate that I, you know, you, your, your value center is different than where my value center is.

And. And from your center, you say things that I don't agree with, because the problem is, is that to the same issue we've been talking about, we hold people who are like that in contempt. Therefore we distance ourselves. Therefore they have nothing worthy to say, and we don't, we don't want to hang out with them.

I think what CS Lewis his point and when he talks about we all need, second friends is we need people who will sit and tell us things we don't want to hear. We need people who will challenge our ridiculous assumptions on things who will help us to see how absurd that thing we just said actually was, most of us would be oh

I don't want to say that I don't want to be unkind. You know, that thing you just said Clayton, that was, that was crazy stupid, you know? I'm kidding. You know, we would never want to say to you know, when you just, but we would say that quickly, somebody who is a second friend, but the point that he was making is it's your second friends that will help you learn

how to be a better person. It's your second friends, they'll help you. They'll sharpen. You they'll show you the absurdity of what you just said and the, and the viewpoints you're holding. But. So many of us have been taught, get rid of those people, get rid of those people, get rid of those people, distance yourself.

And it is, it is a conundrum. There's a balance, you know, bad company, corrupts, good character. First Corinthians 15 talks about, yeah, you got, gotta be careful. It doesn't mean that you're hanging out and all your friends are in that category. But have some friends in that category. Yeah. Have some friends that just, they won't take the thing you said at face value.

And how many things do we say? How many of the seriously, how many things come out of our mouths? That we know the people that we run with. Well, we all agree with that, but somebody who's not in our camp would go, but a time-out you can't possibly mean what you just said. Huh? Gotta have people who will challenge you.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:26:47] Yeah. So 

it's a simple question then. How do we get second friends.

Cal Jernigan: [00:26:51] Yeah. Make friends with them.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:26:52] Make friends.

 Quit making enemies out of them. And we do this, we do this because you're different than me. You have a different value system. So I have every reason to push you outside of the line and go, you don't belong inside here.

Let me, let me, let me give you a real concrete example. All right. And this happened a couple of years back, you know, outside of my comfort zone, I became friends with um, an Imam and and I became friends with a Jewish Rabbi. Okay, so I've got this. It sounds like at the beginning of the joke. This pastor, this imam, and this rabbi, but, but this pastor, this imam in this rabbi made a commitment to become friends with one another.

We have traveled together. We've been in various places and various situations, and I love these guys to death, but then one time when we were back in the States I invited, the rabbi and his wife over for dinner and the Lisa and I did. And then the, the imam and his wife over for dinner. And we all were sitting in our dining room and it was really, it was comical because it's like, yeah.

First off, what can we eat? What can we not eat? You know, so I had to try to find some, some, you know, meal that would match everyone's, you know, religious requirements, but here's the point. It was one of the most incredible evenings Lisa and I have ever shared around our dining room table. And. Two things that were really funny.

And I mean, this, in the sense, it was just like, fun is in the middle of our dinner. The imam goes, Hey, it's time for prayer. And so we all looked at each other like, okay, well, what do you, what do you got to do? He goes, well, I need to go. I need to go pray. And we're like, yeah, What, what do we, we be quiet.

What do we do? He says, no, no, just carry on. It's just which, which  direction. And he asked for the directions, so he would know which way to bow. And so I told them which way. And so he literally we're in our dining room. He went into our family room and he just got down on the floor doing what he does, because this is his faith.

And he began to pray and it was awesome. And we're sitting over here having dinner. He gets done, he comes back, we have a conversation and then we're laughing. And then a friend of mine that stays at our house on this night, every week comes walking in the door. And he he's just like, what is happening here?

And, but if you talk to him, he would say the thing that blew his mind was the laughter. There's the fun and the comfortability that we have with one another. But it comes from that willingness to go. I'm going to sit in that awkward space, that constant thing. We talk about that awkward space that I don't know what to do here.

I am out of my element and I don't, you know, I'm not comfortable with this, but I'm going to be there. I'm going to sit there and I'm going to be there and I'll work through this. But I had to do that with both those guys in my life. And this is where I think life gets beautiful. And again, I'm not, I'm not, as, I'm not a Muslim, I'm not going to convert to Islam.

I'm not a Jew. I'm not going to convert to Judaism, but I can have friends and, and I don't have to hold these in contempt. And by the way, much of our contempt, let's not fail to miss this. Much of our contempt for other people is based in our insecurity about who we actually are. Don't miss that. In other words, I'm threatened by your thing because I'm not so sure about my thing.

Yeah. And when you're sure about your thing, your, their thing, doesn't threaten you, but this is a hard thing for people to get. We're insecure.

Jon Miller: [00:30:06] Wow, that left 

me speechless. That's a lot to think about.

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:10] Yeah. Well, much of what we do is out of our insecurities. Our hatred is out of our insecurity. You're not hating somebody out of your security.

You're hating somebody out of your insecurity. Hmm. And what you hate about them is saying something about your insecurity. You just gotta, you know, you've gotta process, you've got to think it through.

Jon Miller: [00:30:29] Like, it hits you. Like what if they're right and I'm wrong?

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:31] Yeah. Well.

Jon Miller: [00:30:32] That can't be, you know,

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:33] Yeah and that's often why we talk so much.

I can't, I don't want to hear what you have to say for fear, but I grew up without a dad and in my lifetime as a kid in my, in my growing up years, there was a Mormon church down at the end of the street. And I went to boy scouts at that Mormon church. And I had tons of men from the Mormon church, pour their life into me.

And I loved those guys and my very first message I ever spoke was at a Mormon church, as a boy scout for a merit badge.

Jon Miller: [00:31:08] Wow.

Cal Jernigan: [00:31:08] So here's what, here's the point I wanted desperately for Mormonism to be the way I wanted desperately for what those guys stood for, to be what I wanted to stand for, except that as I was growing and as I was becoming, and I just did some investigating, I did some check and again, I'm not here to say bad things about Mormons.

But w but when I dove into that, I, you know, conviction has to be where you stand, who you are, what you're about. And I reached a point while I love those guys, and I love what their lives were all about. And I'm incredibly grateful. I don't believe in this theology. And so you, you go, I'm not, I'm not dismissing the incredible, wonderful people.

These people were. And many, it just, what talking about the context of more, many Mormons were phenomenal people. That's not the issue. Until you're willing to embrace, like, is this true? Is this false? Until you're willing to really open your eyes and just wrestle with it. You don't know what you believe.

And in my story, in my case, when I, when I went through that journey, I'd reached a conclusion while those guys are wonderful. I don't believe this to be truth, and I'm not, I have Mormon friends now. And, and in fact, I've, you know, I've been involved with some of the leadership of the Mormon church. Now, again, I'm not Mormon, I'm not going to become Mormon, but they're not horrible people.

And you have to have a security about what you're about, or you would just never go anywhere.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:32:28] No, that's, that's good. I think what you're saying too, kind of resonates with me is you're comfortable with who you are and it took you to a place where you had to be a little bit uncomfortable to get to that comfortability.

Absolutely.

But then too, you know, you've come to your conclusions. And I think far too often when we come to our conclusions, we start to get negative in the sense of Hey, I, this is my idea and there's no way I'm going to be unified with you. I can't, I'm divided. I'm not a big fan of you. But it sounds like you're saying, Hey, you can get to your conclusion.

And you can still love the other person for who they are and be comfortable with them. And so kind of where I'm going with 

this...

Cal Jernigan: [00:33:11] Well. Yeah, I don't think honestly though, Clayton, I don't think you can truly love another person if I'm not, if I'm not at peace with who I am and I'm not at peace with, and again, I'm speaking from a very specific context of being a believer in Jesus.

If I'm not. If I'm not truly in love with Jesus, and I'm not truly committed to Jesus. I, I'm not going to love, I don't. I really don't have a chance. You know, all the goodness in my life and I can only speak from my life. I think it's true in all of our lives. The only goodness of my life has come through a relationship with Jesus.

And, and outside of that and this, and this is the context of this entire conversation. So what what's going to contempt in a world where people don't believe in God, in a world that everyone just thinks that they're the measure of all humanity. You know that it's in mankind. I don't have a clue. I don't good luck, but when you understand who Jesus is and that he's good, you're not, he's good.

His values are the ones that are going to drive you. Then you have a chance of becoming the kind of person that could influence the world. Well outside of Jesus. I mean, outside of God, why in the world would I care about who I hate? I would love to hate. And, and hatred is a self, you know, an ointment that, you know, we love to slather all over ourselves, just like pigs in the mud.

It feels good to hate people. And all of us know everyone who knows what I'm talking about. When you choose somebody that you believe to be worthy of hate. It there's something inside you that it's just feels good to hate, except that it's the poison that has this taste that you can stand. But pretty soon you start to realize what it's done to you.

And this is again, outside of Jesus. Outside of Jesus. Where are you going to find that? Now I don't have, I don't have any other answers. And, you know, as I've investigated the wide world of religion I, you know, I've, I I've landed with Jesus so.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:34:58] I mean, that's perfect. What I was going to ask is, Hey, how do you get to that point?

And a view of unity and peace. But I think you, you nailed it. If you don't get to that point, unless it's through true a gap, I love Christ.

Cal Jernigan: [00:35:09] And let's go one step further. Okay. Here's the problem. If I don't die to myself, Let's just cut right to the chase. Jesus said, John, in Luke 9:23. If you want to follow me, if you want to be one of mine, you humble yourself.

You die to yourself and then you follow. You humble yourself. You can"t humble yourself before you die. You know, you have to humble yourself before you die to yourself. Can't doubt yourself before you humble yourself, humble yourself, die to yourself. And when you've died to yourself, he said, follow me. Hmm.

Okay. So until I'm willing to get past myself, and this is the problem. So when we go back to hatred and we go back to animosity and we go back to contempt and we go back to disgust, when we go back to go back to all of these things, the reality of it is, is that if we're only looking from our point of view, it's only about me.

If the world is literally all rotating the entire universe, this entire thing is rotating around who I am. This is going to be a very small universe. Let's face it. But when I put Jesus in the center of the universe and I realize I'm in an orbit around him and everything is done, everything is reoriented and, and set.

Right. And I have the possibility. So I can't love, I can't love the way Jesus wants me to love until I'm willing to die the death he wanted me to die. It just can't happen. I won't do it. It's going to be about me and it's going to be what I want and what I want is in odds with what you want and therefore what I want trumps your desire.

And it's all I'm going to do. I'm going to look out for me. This was the problem of our world.

Jon Miller: [00:36:42] That is just such a great place to end for us here. Obviously we're going to do a lot more episodes. And so there is so much more to talk about when it comes to walking beyond the lines. And so thank you so much.

 That would be loving 

Cal Jernigan: [00:36:55] beyond the lines.

Jon Miller: [00:36:56] Oh loving beyond the... yes.

Cal Jernigan: [00:36:59] You walk wherever you want to walk, Jon, but we're going to love beyond the lines.

So there's 

Jon Miller: [00:37:05] so much more to talk about going beyond the lines and loving beyond the lines, you're going to have to tune in next time to learn more about that. And we're going to have a different guests here as we

continue to expand our horizon. And sometimes it's going to be with people. I'm hoping a lot of the times with people that we don't totally agree with. And that's the heart behind this podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today for the Beyond the Lines podcast. We record here at Central Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona.

Our church is pursuing the mantra of love beyond which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace. If you are interested at all, learning more about our church, check us out centralaz.com. 

Cal Jernigan: [00:37:43] It's really not that hard to find us it sounds. It sounds hard, but it's really not.

Yeah. 

Jon Miller: [00:37:48] It's centralaz.com. We have a, we have online services if you're not in the area, but we also have a ton of awesome campuses in the Phoenix area for you to check out if you're local. We'll see you next time at next month's episode of beyond the lines until then start walking beyond your... loving beyond your lines.

Cal Jernigan: [00:38:06] There we go.