Beyond The Lines

How Do You Love Someone Different Than You? | Cal Jernigan | Beyond The Lines Ep. 2

February 17, 2021 Central Christian Church of Arizona / Cal Jernigan Season 1 Episode 2
Beyond The Lines
How Do You Love Someone Different Than You? | Cal Jernigan | Beyond The Lines Ep. 2
Show Notes Transcript

Loving people that are like you is easy. Loving someone different than you is hard.

Is it possible to love someone different than you? Can you love someone and not like them? Should you love someone who has wronged you?

We'll answer all these questions and more on this episode of Beyond The Lines with special guest Cal Jernigan.

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:00] Well, hey, welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast in a world filled with so much hate and division. We want to do something about that. We all have lines that we draw in our lives and we feel like we put a limit out there. We can't listen past this line or this limit. We can't love past this line. We can't understand someone who on the other side of the line, but our goal with this podcast is to treat all people with dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree with them.

So I'm Clayton Eddleman. I'm one  of the hosts of this podcast. And today I've got with me, my friends who, one of them forgot to introduce themselves while back ago. But Jonathan Miller. 

Cal Jernigan: [00:00:37] Jonathan.

Jon Miller: [00:00:38] Yep. That's my name. Nobody knows it until now.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:41] Well, good. Hey, now it's there. And then of course, I've got Cal Jernigan with us lead pastor of Central Christian Church.

How are you doing today Cal? 

Cal Jernigan: [00:00:48] Good. Thanks. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:49] Very good. Well, Hey, for today's episode, wanting to talk about this idea of how do you love someone that is different than you? And, you know, I think it's a hard question because we've all been in challenging situations, right. But Cal, I just wanted to start with you.

Why do you think we should love people who are different than us? 

Cal Jernigan: [00:01:10] Well, I would say start by saying, if you don't let people who are different than you, you're going to have a very small circle of people you love. And that's really, honestly, I think the problem that we're dealing with is as we've become more and more polarized as people our circles get smaller and smaller, we only listen to those who say the same things we live in these echo chambers.

We've talked about. We surround ourselves with people who, every bias we hold, they confirm and We curate our news so that they only tell us what we already know, what we already believe. And so what happens is, is the world just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks gets smaller and smaller and smaller.

And your experience as a person then is diminished. And I think the bottom line is You know, you get to the end of your life. And I've seen this happen to people. In fact, tragically, it happened to my mom. She got up to the end of her life and there's really nobody. And by the time you get to that age, if you're only going to hang out with people who are like you, the world is incredibly small.

Now most of us don't have the aging issue. We just have a mental thing that we put in place and, and you know, it really, what it comes down to is we're very uncomfortable with ideas that are not ours or concepts that we don't agree with. We always feel like we have to debate. We have to win the debate.

We have to, we have to say the snarky snappy thing that, you know, kind of shuts the conversation down. And I think it just, just destroys the Just the opportunity to grow. And so I, I, I think you, you, you make a decision to love those who are different than you, so that you actually broaden your world and it gets bigger and there's so much to learn that you don't know.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:38] Yeah. Well, and I love what you said, you know, talking about circles. I can't imagine at the end of any of our lives that we want to imagine a scenario where no one's there for us. No one cares about us. No one loves us because we didn't spend the time to, to show that care, consideration, and love for others.

You know, obviously Jesus calls us to love one another all the time. And you said something a while ago, I'll read it to you. It's this, the differences become the excuses of why we don't have to do what Jesus said. Can you just unpack that a little bit more for us?

Cal Jernigan: [00:03:08] Yeah. Well, and again, Jesus was very clear.

You know, if you only love those who love you, what reward do you have? What he was saying is everybody, everybody loves those who love them, that there is nothing noble, nothing virtuous, nothing challenging, nothing remarkable, nothing godly, nothing, just nothing. To love somebody who, who is just like you, who loves you back the way you love them.

And You know, so w why do you bother to love people? Well, again, if you're a, if you're a follower of Jesus, you bothered to love people because Jesus commanded you to love people. And it was a command. It wasn't a suggestion. It wasn't an option. It wasn't a, Hey, if you have time, If this is a, you know, something you can get around to, if you can kind of work it into your list of things to do, then you should, you should try this.

It was never in that context, it was a flat-out command as I have loved you. So you must love and you know, tragically. So many of us take the things that Jesus said that, you know, the things that are easy. We we go, yeah, I can do that. The things that like that, and you know, I always, I always kind of laugh.

I want to do a series someday on the things Jesus said that we don't think he meant, you know, and all those would be the ones that we all we blow off. You know, if you're going to give your gift to God and they're on the way to the alter, remember you have something against, or somebody has something against you, you know, go reconcile that, leave your gift, go take care of that relationship and then come and give your gift.

Well, we go gah, come on Jesus you didn't mean that. I mean, come on, you know, how many people are different than us that you know, don't like us and have an issue with us. And Jesus just doesn't give us these outs that we are so quick, you know, to provide for ourself. And we, you know, you love because she's just commanded it and it's hard.

It's hard. But, but truthfully many of the things Jesus said, if you do that, they're hard. And yet somehow we're trying to make it convenient, simple, and non-threatening. Loving people is very threatening. It's scary.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:59] Yeah. Well, and it's always easy to love, love those who are similar to you or like you, but I think you touched on that with, you know, what good does it do if you're just hanging out with the fellow tax collectors or whatnot?

I mean, you're, you're not extending your circle's reach by any means. And so if we do recognize that loving someone who is completely different than us is really hard. What's maybe a first step or how do we get to a point where we can say, Hey, I do love that person actually.

Cal Jernigan: [00:05:27] Well, I think the first step is you make your mind up that you're going to enter into that scary, frightening, threatening, intimidating, challenging, you know, what, whatever word you want to put there, you're going to enter into that zone that says I'm going to put my comfort aside for the sake of something greater than my comfort.

And that, you know, obviously at some point in this, we've got to talk about fear because fear is the greatest de-motivator. Just, you know, stepping into those relationships, stepping into those opportunities to, to actually engage with somebody who's different. And we fear the unknown. And we also tend to... that

not only do we fear the unknown, I think we magnify the unknown. We make, you know, we make it so much bigger. It's such a bigger issue than it really is. But, but in our minds, we, we use that as just justification for, I just can't go there. It's it's just, and Jesus wouldn't want me to. And the truth is, is I think Jesus absolutely wants us to, we excuse ourselves from doing that.

We don't want to go there and we're just afraid. 

Jon Miller: [00:06:30] Hmm. Do I, man, when. So we're supposed to love people. Right. And we're supposed to love all people. But I remember this, the saying, my dad used to say, especially when I like acted up and I was like a brat. He would say like...

Cal Jernigan: [00:06:43] So you heard it 

a lot?

Jon Miller: [00:06:44] Yeah.

So I heard, I heard it a lot.

Cal Jernigan: [00:06:46] Like my dad always said!

Jon Miller: [00:06:49] It's just like every day no he didn't.

But he would say. I love you, but I really don't like you right now. Do we have to like people that we love? Like, is there a, like, is there a there?

Cal Jernigan: [00:07:01] You know, I don't, I don't know. I think that there probably is. Cause you're not, you know, you're not called to go like whatever you do that, you know, I love doing this.

Like I, I like, I. Like personally, I love to fish. I love to fish. I love to fish doesn't mean that I'm going to put people in the boat with me that I don't like that you know, are just, you know, they're just different or whatever. So I don't think it's a it's. I don't think it's an issue of collecting to your boat.

All the kinds of people that you just know, conversations are difficult, they're challenging and, and spend the things you love or with people you don't like. Now at the same time. I don't think he never said like everyone you come in contact with. But, but love is much deeper. It's, it's a much, it's a much greater commitment on your part.

And then just liking somebody. And I do think you have the preference. I don't think Jesus took away your preference to go. I prefer these people that these people, you know, these people are, are, you know, I get along with them. I get them. They get me. They're easy. That's the people, you like. The people you love, you, you make a commitment.

It goes way beyond that. And it, again, it's just, it's a non-negotiable I think when it comes to being a Christ follower you, you, you will yourself to love because I'm, I'm I'm a, I'm a committed believer. I will do what Jesus asked me to do. And he doesn't ask you to go whatever your recreational thing you like to do, do that with all kinds of people, you don't tend to want to hang out with.

He didn't say that, but the commitment is that you got love. Now, I would take that a step further and say you really, you're really making headway. You're getting there. You're moving. When you're willing to put somebody in your boat and you go, you know what, this could be rough. This could be a tough, could be a tough day.

But that's, but that's just taking it further and further, further. There's a whole lot less than that. I think we're called to do. And that is that a basic and we've talked about this before a deep respect and and I'm giving value. I'm treating a person the way that God sees them. God values them.

I'm going to treat them that way. And that's a decision that you make. And, and to me again, we have a hard enough time liking people. We got to get way beyond that. We've got to get to we're actually go and look, I'm going to be committed to what Jesus said. So I do think there, there there's a difference. I just don't really know how to qualify it.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:30] Yeah. Listen to that I'm realizing maybe that's why I haven't gotten my fishing invite. No, I'm just kidding.

Cal Jernigan: [00:09:36] Maybe

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:37] it's all right. It's all right.

Cal Jernigan: [00:09:38] It'd be a very contentious day on the lake.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:42] But thinking, I mean, going back to fishing, you're not going to catch a fish if you don't throw out the line.

Right, right. You got to keep doing that and doing that. And I think about. When we interact with others you know, without making contact with others, we'll never make an impact on them. And I think a lot of us sometimes dwell on, you know, fears or reservations that we have on just you know, I don't really want to go out of my comfort zone and do this.

And so how do we break the habit of, of harboring our fears and just kind of holding back so that we can go out and make a difference?

Cal Jernigan: [00:10:17] Yeah, well, again, Clayton I think that the reality of it is, is our fear. You know, our fears are either gonna grow or they're gonna diminish as we live our lives, you're gonna become more afraid of people are gonna become less afraid of people.

You, you tend to fear that, which you do not know. And so I think again, when you're talking about like, what are the first steps, the first steps are just start a friendship, just start creating just a bond. Just the fact that, you know, Hey, I know who you are, you know who I am. And just like you did when you were in the first grade, you know, think about the first day of school.

I mean, was there ever a day in your life that was more threatening that, you know, you were young and you know, but I got to go into this environment. I don't know anybody. They don't know me. And you know, what was the last thing your mom said, be friendly. Be friendly, you know, as you drops you off. Be friendly, go out there.

But somehow as we get older, we get very selective and the number of people that we choose to be that friendly with. So I think again, you start, you just start by. I just, I, I just want to get to know you, and I think it's really important that we don't cross over into the line. Cross over the line to where I'm only interested in you because you are a project of mine and I'm trying to change you.

And so I'm going to befriend you, but I've got a real alterior motive and I'm literally, I'm investing my time, but I don't really want to be with you. I don't really care for you. But now it's just pure obedience and that's going to get, that's just going to get nowhere. You're going to make no difference.

But to the point you just said, we don't change the world by sequestering ourselves away from people. And certainly look at the life of Jesus. And, and one of the great tragedies of the church is and this take me just a moment, but if you look at the life of Jesus and Jesus drew people to him. The, the tax collectors, the sinners, the outcast, the lepers, the, you know, everyone that the society said have nothing to do with. Jesus

not only engaged with them, but they, they literally chase after him. He was incredibly attractive to them. We, somewhere in our theology have gotten this idea that, you know, again, hang out with people that are like you, that you like and keep a distance from everybody else. Then what happens is sinners are not drawn to the, to the church at all.

And ultimately if at some point they're not drawn to you, they're not drawn to you. They're not drawn to me. How in the world are we going to ever influence them with Jesus? Now again, the church is not the answer. Be real clear. Jesus is the answer, but Jesus's church is the vehicle that delivers Jesus to people.

And so again, if we keep to ourselves and we only you know, and we always refer to the Holy huddle, the comfort of the Holy huddle, just get all the people that get it. Hang out with them. And and again, there's a lot of theology that's been infiltrated into the church that just says that that's what God wanted.

And you know, go all the way back to Genesis 12 when, when God chose, you know, he's ultimately gonna choose the nation of Israel, but he's going to call Abraham. And, and the whole idea is I'm going to bless you for the purpose of you, blessing people. It was not an end into itself. It's not, I'm going to bless you

so you're blessed. I'm going to bless you and you're going to be the light among, you know, going to be the light to the nations. You're going to be the one that brings the vehicle that brings the good news. And of course, I'm speeding through time here as we get to the church. But if you never engage, if you never take the time, you never bothered to you know, cross that line, you know, and that's what your no contact equates to no impact.

And the problem is, is that. Again, you didn't talk about the Jewish nation and you know, we're just, this is ours and we don't proselytize, you know, we don't, we're not out trying to bring people in. The problem. And I, I want spoke in Jewish synagogue of all places on the high and Holy day of Yom Kippor.

And it was really interesting because there was a Q and A afterwards. Yeah. And one of the people in the, in the church, literally, he said, there's something I do not understand about you all. And, and I said, well, take a shot. He goes, why? Like I work with this guy, he's a believer. And he won't stop talking to me about Jesus.

And he goes, I don't, I'm not interested in Jesus. How do I get him to stop? And I looked at him and I said, you have to understand, you're looking at that as an, as a nuisance, he's looking at you as somebody valuable. And he is doing exactly what his Lord and savior taught him to do. And, and, you know, w I talked about the great commission, you know, go into all the world.

And, you know, this is the, this is the calling and he, and he said, I've never heard that. Never heard that. And that was strange for me to hear, because I've heard that all my life, yeah. Crossover make make occasions and opportunities, make them take advantage of these opportunities to meet people and And consequently, that's why the church has grown to the size it's grown to is because, you know, there's enough people who get it, that you know, that the church grows, but never, but they're not a project.

And that's a, there's a, that's a double edge sword, very fine blade. You've gotta be really careful. I'm not interested in any, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to become, and I was never called to become interested in people only for the sake of, you know, seeing them come to Jesus and then I have no more interest in you.

Jon Miller: [00:15:38] Yeah. It's the difference between like, treating them like a checkbox, like I have to do this because

Cal Jernigan: [00:15:43] I want to do this, but I have to do this.

Jon Miller: [00:15:45] And actually loving them.

Cal Jernigan: [00:15:47] Yeah. And, and, and I think that again, and we we're circling back. What is the great barrier? It's fear. And I have a friend that said it this way and I I've spoken to Carl Medearis said, you know, Jesus said, perfect love, casts out, fear. Carl Medearis my friend said and perfect fear casts out all love. Because we just, we go, look, I, my fear is too great. And so I can't, I just, I can't, I'm not going to go there. I'm not going to love you. And, and really what love does is it should cast out fear, not the other way around, but you, you, you know, we, we can talk about this till we're blue, but the reality of it is, is we're all surrounded by people.

We don't know. And all of those people, we don't know if we choose to see them as a threat, we will see them as a threat. And if we see them as a threat, we'll protect ourselves from them. If we protect ourselves from them, we will make no difference in their lives.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:16:44] That's all good.

Jon Miller: [00:16:45] I think. There's a question that keeps coming up in my mind.

I think a lot of people might be thinking too right now is they might have somebody in their lives that has really wronged them. That hurt them in some way. And I, I, you know working in the church, I've, I've met these people who are like, you're telling me to love them? Like, how do I love them when they've done this to me?

Like, we're not even talking about, like, I think generally what we're talking about here is people we might not even know yet that we need to love them because no matter how different they are, but what about those people? That have wronged us or have done something to us. Like what does it look like to love them?

Cal Jernigan: [00:17:23] First off, let's say everyone. Everyone has been wronged.

Jon Miller: [00:17:25] Yeah.

Cal Jernigan: [00:17:26] And again, let's not forget Jesus got crucified.

Jon Miller: [00:17:28] Right.

Cal Jernigan: [00:17:29] Okay. And then he said, father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. That the problem, when we, again, We separate a command to love with you know, this is a disqualifier.

Yeah. But they wronged me. They did something. They did, they hurt me. So therefore I'm not, I'm not responsible to love them. What ends up happening is that the the bitter pill of unforgiveness poisons us, it doesn't poison them. And you can, you can literally low the existence of another person. And while you're doing that and you're making yourself miserable, they're out playing golf in the sunshine.

And they're having a great day. Forgiveness, is so much about setting yourself free from the debt that, you know, you feel somebody owes you Jesus re you know, he took our sins. He forgave us of much greater wrong, and that's of course the story of the two debtors something much, much greater than anyone's ever done to me

I've done the God. And yet, while still a sinner, Romans 4... 5:8. You know, God chose to forgive me and I, and so I think that you cannot take seriously the teachings of Jesus. It's not like he was never wrong. He didn't know what he was talking. He didn't have anyone hurt him. None of us have had anybody hurt us the way they hurt him and father forgive them.

And so I think that, I just think that the greatest freedom God wants to give us just the freedom. To, to be able to love and let it, let it go. And that's really, when you won't forget forgiving is releasing somebody of a debt. That's what it is. It's releasing somebody of a debt. And, and I, you know, I look at it and I go, I can harbor resentment towards somebody, I can hold this grudge.

I can do whatever, you know, but at the end of the day, I'm miserable. They're not, and there is nothing they could do that would actually make up for it. And they can say, they're sorry, that's not going to take away the pain. It's not going to take away the hurt. You can't go back in time, you know, and, and, and I understand, even as, as I'm saying this, some of the wounds that we've have been inflicted on us are deep, deep scars.

They're not like trivial things they're deep things. The bottom line is how long are you gonna let that person punish you? And they're not actually punishing, you're punishing you by, by holding onto it. And then nursing that resentment nursing, that grudge nursing that wrong. And I, I, again, I think Jesus go and get above that.

Get beyond that. And and, and love for your good, which is a whole nother thing. We, we could talk about, you know, loving people does far more good for you, regardless of whatever happens to them. It does far more good in your life than you might ever do in their life. 

Jon Miller: [00:20:09] That's really freeing, especially that fear like fear.

It's like, we talk about fear over and over again, like how that top stops us from loving. Like when we able to love. And we're released from that fear we realize, wow, how much that was a burden on our lives.

Cal Jernigan: [00:20:25] Well, fear, fear, always again, this states the obvious fear always comes from an insecurity. What am I afraid of?

Like, what is that person going to do? That causes me to distance myself from them. I mean, there are certainly people that you should fear. I'm going to state the obvious. So people that are, I mean, that's, I don't think that's who we're talking about either here. So let's keep that. I mean, I'm not going to go up to somebody who's known to do great harm, you know, to people and just go, Hey, hi, how are you doing?

I'm going to be guarded in that. But, but again, that's a very, very small percentage of people. Most people are that we keep our distance from our 100% harmless to us, but we create that they're, they're evil, they're bad, they're different. They're whatever. And I, again, I'm just committed to trying to get beyond that and trying to lead a church of people to go.

Let's just get beyond that. And there are there are, you know, we will, we will be wronged and Jesus was crucified.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:21:21] Yeah.

Cal Jernigan: [00:21:21] So. There you go.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:21:23] Yeah, 

one, I think you said something that's so true is majority of the people out there are completely harmless, completely innocent. But it's really just our own fear, but I almost see almost like an apathy to human connection in the sense.

Before I came to Central, I was at a church in the Bay area, Silicon Silicon Valley. And I lived in this apartment complex and we were right by Apple's headquarters, but it seemed like everybody just had an air pods in or like was on their phone the entire time. And so even those normal interactions where he would just say hello to your neighbor, as they're walking to get the mail or getting out of their car or doing something, those were almost like non-existent.

But I think, you know, when I think about this, I'm like, Hey, they're human beings. Just like me. They've got a soul just like me. We share the same soul in that sense. And so, you know, you shared a video a while ago at one of our services of these two girls who were in a class together. Know, and on the video, you could clearly see that one was white and one was black and you know, their, their teachers or their moms, I couldn't remember who sat them down and said like, Hey, you, you two are different.

But they said, wait, what? And they were completely heartbroken. And they said, no, like we are, we share the same soul. Got it and, and we love each other. And I think that is that's the picture of the way we want to love people. Right. And you know, being around, just kind of a society that is very contentious on.

We don't love people who look different than us. Do you think even this kind of unity that we saw in just these two little girls, is that possible?

Cal Jernigan: [00:23:01] I do think it's possible. So the point of that video was that there were adults trying to tell them this won't last. You know, th th this is not normal.

This is not well, you know, hatred is a learned behavior. Love is a learned behavior. Accepting people is a learned behavior, and the opposite is a learned behavior. And so we live in a society. So go, you know, and I'm just back, I'm back on your Silicone Valley, you know, why, why are people running around with earbuds in you know, AirPods or whatever we're calling them, your buds, whatever, whatever they're called.

What, so why, why are we doing that? This is again, a picture of isolation. This is a picture of loneliness to me. This is a picture of I don't need anybody who do you know that doesn't need anybody? So we put on some sort of a, an image that I'm secure. I'm fine. I don't, you know, and, and my guess, without knowing who we're talking about, my guess is they're afraid of you.

They're afraid of you and they don't, you know, they don't, they're not sure about you. So this is a way, in fact, I was, I was talking to my son the other day. I I walk a lot these days and I've just made a commitment, which is kind of funny. I just made a commitment. I'm just, I just decided I'm going to be friendly to everyone I pass and, and I have I, I usually have a book going in my ears.

I'm listening to something as I'm walking. And it's just one of these funny things because you can't see like I can hear like my phone, if I wanted to, I could hear it. You can't see that I don't have these white things sticking out, but I have these other AIDS that help me to understand here.

And so people don't know that I, I literally can't hear them. But I'm as friendly as I can be. And sometimes they'll talk it out too, because wait a minute, I got to stop and gotta stop my book. But the point is I shock them when I'm friendly. I literally shocked them. And they're like, like do a double-take if we would just simply be more friendly and go more out of our way.

I think we'd be surprised how many people would respond. We just were taught not to. And we're taught, these are the differences that set us apart. And again, I'm just walking down a canal, somebody else's coming the other direction, either on a bike or walking, and I'm just going to, I'm going to show myself friendly and if they start talking, I'm going to stop

whatever I'm listening to it. I'm going to talk to them and I've done that and sometimes get recognized. This is a whole nother, funny that the bottom line is, is your life would be so much richer if it were broader it's context, then comfort would tell you, you should make it. That's the point we're driving at.

Well, I, I spoke about this guy. I have a friend that lives in my neighborhood. He's a preacher in a church here in Mesa and he's he's a black man and he and I have just become really good friends. I love this guy, cherish this guy. And you know, at first, when we first, he had, in fact, I think he introduced himself to me first in that case.

And again, the immediate thing is what, why, why is he talking to me? And he is doing exactly what I need to be doing, which is I, he needs, he's friendly. He's reaching out, he's being social. I need to do that. Anyway, all that led to what is today a really, really great friendship, but his world is different than my world.

And as I've gotten to know him and we've sat down because he's a preacher, I'm a preacher. We I've been to his church. He's been our church. You know, we talk a lot and my life is so much richer. That's the point? Because I had a chance to hear from his perspective, things that are so different than mine, and he's helped me through things and I've helped him through things we're better off, you know, being friends.

And again, he's a believer, but the principle I think still holds.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:26:46] Yeah. Well, it's, it's a beautiful picture of. The unity kind of that I think God wants us to have with one another being a part of one another's lives, like you said, makes it a richer experience for, for you and for them. So, you know, taking that down to a context for us, you know, how does an organization like your church, Central Christian.

How are you? 

Cal Jernigan: [00:27:08] Not yours?

Clayton Eddleman: [00:27:09] Yeah, I'm a part of it. It's but it's really our church.

Jon Miller: [00:27:13] Our church

Cal Jernigan: [00:27:14] our church.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:27:15] So let's rephrase that. How are, and for those who are listening and maybe don't know how is Central and how are we starting to make strides in this process of becoming more diverse, welcoming people with different perspectives, different backgrounds, different skin colors, and just different types of culture.

What are, what are we up to these days?

Cal Jernigan: [00:27:34] Well I think what we're doing is we're challenging the status quo, you know, we're basically saying you know, what, what, what was the design that God made? And I, and I think we even talked about this already in earlier podcasts. I believe God created one race, one race. We, as people have created you know, kind of a, a gradient, you know, like, so it's been parallel to a caste system.

You know, we have our man-made caste system in America when we put people on different, you know, we don't call them that we don't, we don't say that out loud, but if you look at people and you say this person is more valuable than this person, this person is more valuable than that person you're creating caste.

And again, you'll never see that in Jesus and so in, just in, you know, living our lives, I think it starts with, it starts with going to a church that will actually make you uncomfortable. And that's the problem. And you know, we do make people uncomfortable because we talk about this stuff and we challenge people.

But if you never, if you're never taught, if you're never confronted, if you're never pushed, if you're never, again, challenged is the right word. And that gets a healthy word. It's a good word. If you don't aim as something more than easy, you're always going to land on easy and Jesus never landed on easy.

And so as a church, I think it's just a matter of, let's just start putting people in different situations and let's start taking people to places. And that's what we, again as a church, we do all kinds of activities that gets us around people that we would say are different than us. And we can go all the way over to Palestine and sit with, you know, Palestinians and, and we can sit with Jewish people and they're, they're very, very different.

We can go anywhere around the world. But I think all of that, ultimately you bring it back home, you bring it back to where you live and that's so where we've gotten so involved in the refugee movement. And just trying to like get our people, sitting in the homes with people from all over the world.

And you, you, you, you just start applying the things that, you know, you ought to be doing. Most of us would benefit if we would just simply walk across the line hallway from where we work, or if you're in school, walk across the aisle and go meet somebody. Go across the street and meet your neighbors.

Just get a chance to, Hey, instead of a, Hey you Oh, that guy's, name's Fred. I didn't, I never knew that, you know, put the effort into it and I've got a neighbor who just moved in. I actually I've been wanting to meet them and on my way, here was the first time I've actually been seeing them. And I thought I got to meet them, but I can't cause I'm on my way to film this, but making the effort that I can sit around and wait for them to come over and introduce himself to me.

Or I could go introduce them. So as a church, we're trying to teach people, take the initiative, go. Go across the street, go across the hall, go across the aisle, go wherever you got to go to go meet people.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:27] Yeah. Well, it sounds like you have some homework for later.

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:29] I do have homework.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:30] You got a neighbor you want to know Cal?

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:31] Yeah, you can ask me about it.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:32] Those are all great steps for how we, as individuals can, can start getting across the line and, and meeting our neighbors. But would you have any tips or help that you could give somebody who's maybe in charge of an organization? Who's looking at this and saying, Hey, I want to, I want to start being different.

I want to go to those challenging places.

Cal Jernigan: [00:30:50] Yeah. Well, I, I, with, you know, I, I'm not sure it's a tip. I think again people are never going to do if you're a leader and you're a part of an organization and you have a voice in the direction of that organization. The organization's never going to go where you don't point it, it just, isn't going to end up.

They're not going to drift over there unless it's a bad place. And maybe then it would drift over. But if you have a good intention and a good motive, and you're trying to get people to do something, that's not natural, you gotta model it. You gotta be, you gotta be willing to do whatever you're asking people, because people are not going to do what you tell them to do.

They're going to do what they see you doing. And then, and again, being able to talk about. Experiences that you had, where it becomes a part of the culture. And you know, you you guys are obviously on our staff in our staff meetings, we have, almost every staff meeting. We have what we call God moments or God's sightings or whatever, in which different staff people get up and share an experience that they had where you know, I saw God show up here.

I saw God do this well, when it becomes a part of the vocabulary of your organization, it starts to become a part of the culture in which you're leading. It's expected that you would have these experiences and I, and you guys have heard me say, and guys, have, we have got no God's sightings. Let's not kid ourselves, that we're being, God's people here on this planet because we're not because we're just keeping to ourselves.

We've got to get out and always say, you know, I only got two  I got two eyes and you've got two eyes. So we got two sets between us. Okay. You are there. I'm here. You saw, I didn't see, because I can't see through your eyes. You have to, you have to put it into words. So creating a culture where we share stories.

We talk about we, we mot-- and it's incredibly motivating. We motivate one another when you hear well, here's what I, you know, here's what my neighbor did. And then you're like going like, ah, I don't even know my neighbor and you're like going, I should, I should, you know, get to know them a little bit. So again, as a leader, you gotta set the direction you have to have.

And even before you can do that, you have to have a vision for it. And I think that in our church, this has been something that's been evolving over years now, and it's becoming more and more kind of the heartbeat of our church. But you gotta have a vision. You gotta, you gotta see the world differently than it is.

I have to begin to imagine what it could be and what it should be and your belief in God. And once you see that you start teaching it and you start modeling it and you start encouraging it and, and, you know, reiterating it over and over and over again. And honestly, I think before long people will just go that's who we are.

And I would hope that you know, the love beyond the lines, which is in our culture here. This is what we refer to as our just cause. And it's, it's that, that thing that when it's all said and done, this is what we want to be. This is what we want to be known for. It is our just cause it's not, it's a little bit different than our mission, but it's bigger than our mission.

This exists that we exist for the sake of loving people. And the motive love people of course, is, you know, we want everyone to come to Jesus and have a relationship and, you know, grow in him, but are just cause is to love. We were going to do this. And and expect a lot of pushback because people don't like being uncomfortable.

Jon Miller: [00:33:52] That's what I was going to ask is like, is that easy? Is it like smooth sailing to switch and start loving beyond? 

Cal Jernigan: [00:33:57] Yeah, well, but, but you know, guys, let's be. Let's be truthful. If the church, if the church capital C church in America would live the values of Jesus, which we would refer to as kingdom values and not country values, but kingdom values.

The country we live in would be radically transformed. It would be different. The problem is, is that as the culture goes, the church just tends to follow. And instead of challenging that culture and really casting a bigger vision and a grander vision is what, you know, sometimes we say around here we're just gonna, we're going to be like everybody else.

And if the church is like everybody else, the church is going to make no difference. And again, a little cliche that we've said, which I believe is true. You cannot make a difference unless you're willing to be different. You just have to be willing to be different. I'm not going to do the way the world does it.

And if the church capital C church would do that more seriously, the world, the mess, the world's in would not be as deep of a mess. We're complicit with it because we cooperate with it. 

Jon Miller: [00:35:03] Sometimes, 

sometimes the. There have been many churches that have helped it along to travel.

Cal Jernigan: [00:35:10] Tragically. 

And again, we don't say that like, well, we never have, we we've probably contributed our fair share.

But, but in the context of what we're talking about, we are trying to learn how to do this and it is not without, without a cost. Yeah.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:35:25] Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. Leave leave some room for thought there, but I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today for the Beyond The Lines Podcast, where we record here out of Central Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and our church is pursuing the mantra of love beyond which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace.

If you're interested about learning at all about our church, you can check us out on CentralAZ.com. And we have online services as well of a bunch of different locations, Phoenix, Metro area, if you are local as well and want to join us. So we'll see you next month for our next episode of beyond the lines until then start walking beyond your lines.