How would your life be different if you were born somewhere else, had different parents, had a different set of friends, and had different life experiences? Would you still be the person you are today?
So when we listen to someone else's story why do we assume that we would do things differently? Why do we only view their story through our perspective and not try put ourselves in their shoes and see what they see?
All of these questions are key to listening and understanding people who have different perspectives from you. Join us on the Beyond The Lines podcast as we dig deeper on how to do this with special guest Cal Jernigan.
New episodes every other Wednesday!
How would your life be different if you were born somewhere else, had different parents, had a different set of friends, and had different life experiences? Would you still be the person you are today?
So when we listen to someone else's story why do we assume that we would do things differently? Why do we only view their story through our perspective and not try put ourselves in their shoes and see what they see?
All of these questions are key to listening and understanding people who have different perspectives from you. Join us on the Beyond The Lines podcast as we dig deeper on how to do this with special guest Cal Jernigan.
New episodes every other Wednesday!
Jon Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Beyond The Lines podcast. In a world filled with so much hate and division, we want to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw in our lives, where we feel like that is our limit. We can't listen past that line. We can't love past this line. We can't understand someone who is on the other side of the line.
But our goal with this podcast is to treat all people with the dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree with them. My name is Jonathan Miller and I'm one of the hosts today. And I'm joined by Mike co-host Clayton Eddleman. How are you doing today?
Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:28] Hello? I'm good. How about you?
Jon Miller: [00:00:30] I'm doing great.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:31]
Awesome.
And, also today
Jon Miller: [00:00:32] we have on the podcast, Cal Jernigan. Lead Pastor at Central Christian Church. We've had him on for several episodes now. And really excited to have you on one more time and...
Cal Jernigan: [00:00:42] Well thank you. Good to be here.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:44] You made the cut, so you're not going anywhere. Well hey, just sitting here looking at both of us.
I'm, I'm kind of under the assumption that we don't come from the same families. I don't recognize you. I didn't grow up with you. So that means that we all got different stories, probably. We're coming from different places. So Cal. this whole episode, we're just talking about how to listen to somebody who's got a different perspective from us.
And you said a while back ago, this, you said, "Other people stories are different than our own. And their story, most everything is different than your story. Different family of origin, a different education, a different experience, different places that their story would be told. And that's what makes their story, their story, and not your story."
So what have you found to be most helpful when you're trying to learn and understand someone else's story?
Cal Jernigan: [00:01:32] Wherever you've arrived, wherever you've arrived, wherever I've arrived, you got there by a combination of factors that are absolutely unique to you. And somebody else who had traveled down the same path, would be similar to you.
There'd be your, your kind of your personality differences, but the truth of the matter is, is you're, you're kind of a summation of a whole bunch of things that happened to you along the way. And so whatever stage in life you are, that's kind of how you got there. I think the thing that is you know, intriguing is when you start to realize that if you would have lived somebody else's life, if you would have gone, if you would have been born where they were born, when they were born, had their parents, had their set of friends, had their life experiences, had their ups and downs and all of that.
You probably would not end up being the same person you've ended up being. And yet we don't, we just think know I'm just me. I just, this is who I am and I'd be this way, but you're a product of a whole lot of, of factors in your past. So I think what's really important is in trying to understand somebody else's story is that you don't try to project your journey onto their life.
Cause that's what I think we do. This is what I think we get wrong. We hear it through our lens, not through their lens. And I think listening is trying to discern, just going, okay, explain that to me. Like I don't like, like, tell me about that. And then the willingness as we've talked about before to ask questions and go, well, what was that like?
I don't know what caused you to do that? Or what were you thinking or any of those kinds of things? Because again, I'm going to naturally by default assume that I, you, you you're doing what I would have been doing under those circumstances it's just not true. And so I think just a curiosity and a willingness to peel back the onion and just go explain that man.
Like, like how'd you get there? And then a genuine interest. And this is where I think so much of listening breaks down. Is, you know, we always talk about, you know, the, the, their cliches, you know, you're given two ears, one mouth, you should listen twice as much, you know, that sort of thing. And, and another one that goes with it, you know, is often in a conversation, you know, it's one person talking and another person just waiting to talk. And you're, you know, you're formulating what you're going to say
as soon as that moment comes, you know, when there's a break and consequently, you're not, you're not fully there. You're not fully in the moment. So I think listening means what I'm going to say in a minute doesn't matter. What are you saying in this moment? And I need to try my hardest to get, get around that.
So just the willingness to go, tell me about that.
Jon Miller: [00:03:58] It's so true because even just now, I'm like I'm in my own world. Like, okay, what am I going to say next? And I'm not fully listening. Like, I'll just admit that openly right now because that's what we do.
Cal Jernigan: [00:04:07] We do it all the time and it's second, it's just second nature.
So consequently, all that incredibly profound stuff I just said, you missed.
I'm really
Jon Miller: [00:04:16] good at that.
Cal Jernigan: [00:04:17] But I, I, you know, on a serious note when you're talking to somebody and, and you know, when somebody willing to open up their life to you, cause that's what, that's what we're not, we're not talking about, what's your opinion of. You know, Clayton if you tell me about your growing up years, Jon if you tell me what it was like when.
You know, if you're telling me a story of some, you know, this is when I got picked for something, when it got rejected by someone I cared about, you know, that's, you're entering the sacred space. And if I'm flippant about that, because all I'm doing is just trying to make a joke or trying to come up with a comeback or some snarky to say, I I'm dishonoring you,
and I am going to miss the point of what you just said. So it's just a willingness to go, your life matters. And and I, you know, that one of the grace greatest grace giving things I can do is actually honor you by listening. So.
Jon Miller: [00:05:09] Yeah.
Yeah well I love that.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:11] I mean, even just thinking in my upbringing it's easy to sometimes just be dismissive or look at it through just even my perspective of, Hey, that's not what I went through or what I experienced and my life has gone so well.
So you should experience that at least in your in your perspective or whatnot. So I definitely get that. I think too What you just said is really good for people that you don't know, right. People that you're you're meeting for the first time and actually trying to learn more about them, or maybe it's somebody you have already met before, and you're just trying to grow deeper with them.
But you know, I think about, I grew up with sisters and we did not always get along. That was just kinda the nature of things. So how would you encourage us like, or suggest that we act with those who we struggled to get along with that we should just be simpaticos be getting along with.
Cal Jernigan: [00:06:02] So a couple of episodes back, we talked about contempt and the, and the damage that can contempt can do, and that's really, I think a lot of times what that is is, you know, I've dismissed, you, I've devalued you, you know, you don't matter. You're just, you're just family. You're just a sister of mine or whatever.
And I think whenever you do that you're, you know, you're going to go off, you're going to veer off the rails. And so like how do you stop that is you stop, you inside your head, you stop feeding, contemptuous thoughts that, you know, w w you have nothing to say, and, you know, you've, you know, there's, you're not going to tell me anything
I don't know. So it's, it's going to go nowhere. So I think how you get around that is you just, you, you have a little mental discipline that just says, I'm not, I'm not going to do that. And this goes back to so many you know, relational values that we we've just wrestled with. You know, consider one another more important than yourself.
You know, don't just look out for your own interests. You know, this is basic, this is what we're talking about. You know, does your sister have a point of view, that is, is her point of view. This is how she sees it. And again, when you get to familial things, you know, stuff gets really weird, which again, all of us understand that you know, you choose your friends, you don't choose your family, or you can reject your friends,
you can't reject your family, you can, but you know, the dynamics are so much deeper. You have to stay in it. You can't just, you can't jettison it. And most of us, you know, truth, be known. Most of us have a wake of, you know, past relationships behind us, you know, bobbing up and down in the wake of our lives.
And it's, it's a tragedy. Family is different. And so when you ask that specifically about family, I think you just, you have to fight through that more.
Jon Miller: [00:07:44] But what w what about that voice in our head though? It's like, well, they're not listening to me. Why should I listen to them? You know? Cause that's, that's usually why we struggle listening to people I think is because, well, they're not gonna listen to me.
Why should I listen to them? That's not fair.
Cal Jernigan: [00:07:57] I think you just basically have to make your mind up. You're either. You know, you're, you're a miss you're mistreating me us and justify me mistreating you. And you're disrespecting me. Doesn't give me permission and again, in the world you would say that's, that's fair.
You know, you treat me like that. I'm gonna treat you like that back. If you're going to walk with Jesus, you're going to have to live on a different plane. You're going to have to, value things that the world doesn't value. This, and again, this is a huge subject because a lot of times we want to take the world's values and implement them into our Christian life.
And then we get frustrated. Doesn't work. Of course it doesn't work because a world doesn't play by those rules. And and so, you know, when somebody mistreats you, if. If all you want is a relationship that's contankerous and, you know, combative and treat him back the way they treated you. Obviously, you know, a gentle answer, turns away wrath, a harsh word, stirs up anger, you know, proverbs talks about that.
And you just go, well, what, what, what do you want back? I think it's a basic courtesy when you were willing to treat somebody kindly and listened to what they have to say. So I either do that or you don't, you know, and, and if, if I'm only going to treat those who treat me well, I'm only going to treat well, those who treat me well, that I just shrunk the pool considerably.
And that changes the subject of what we're actually talking about.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:14] Yeah. And when you, I mean, when you do treat somebody harshly I think that's more of an apathetic approach versus if you do treat them with kindness and the dignity that they deserve, it's treating them with empathy. And I think that's the big struggle is, is how do we deal,
empathetically rather than apathetically. So how do you suggest that we listen with this empathy and compassion that we each deserve?
Cal Jernigan: [00:09:38] Yeah. Well, I would say this, that when we're talking about empathy, empathy is, empathy is not, you know it is, but it's more than just me putting my self in your shoes or your place.
I think empathy is, is trying to listen in such a way that I'm hearing your story. And I'm experiencing your emotions, not what I would go through if I were put in that story, because I think again, where we started this podcast, it's just so easy, you know, I'm just going to hear everything through my own lens.
If, if you're telling me about something that was difficult for you or something that was very challenging for you, something that was, you know, overwhelmed you or something that may, you know, put you in outrageous elation of joy. And all I'm doing is just using my filter for all of that. I'm again, number one, I'm not really listening and number two, I'll never feel what you felt.
So somehow I think that the difference between, you know, just hearing and an empathetic listening is that you are putting yourself in their place, but you're letting them tell you the emotions they felt. And then you're trying to feel those emotions, not your emotions as you would have felt. And again, it's a nuance, but I think it's really significant.
And often. You know, with the farther you're apart from a person, the greater the distance you know, the greater, the chasm you're trying to close the harder it is for you to actually, you know, feel that what they're feeling because you go, I just, I don't I wouldn't feel that. And, and then, and then to say the thing, you should never say what you shouldn't, you shouldn't feel that. Well, they feel what they feel.
And in fact, I think when in a message, we were talking about this and I said, you know, a person's, a person's story is the truest truth they know. That is their truest truth. And the minute I start trying to tell you, when you're telling me about your past, you're telling me about some traumatic something you're telling me about some disappointment, whatever.
And I start telling you, well, you shouldn't feel that way. I have left the relay. You know, this, this thing is going to go nowhere because you're. you're, you're not going to receive that. What, how, who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't feel. I've got to, if I'm going to be an empathetic listener, try to feel what you're telling me you felt.
And even if I don't have a box to put it in or prism to look at it through. I've got to try my hardest to see, well, why did that do that to you? What was it that caused you to feel that way? That is the hard work of listening. And again, most of us don't do that. Let's, you know, let's be straight up here. Because it's hard work, but in the context of, you know, you really want to understand somebody's story.
You have to go there. You simply have to go there. And not tell them you shouldn't have felt that.
Jon Miller: [00:12:12] And you're not going to get there the first time either that you try. I think it's definitely something that takes practice. It's probably going to be painful too. Like, to try to practice that. It's not easy.
Cal Jernigan: [00:12:23] Well, and most people won't invite you into that sacred space in the first pass, anyway. You know, cause again, the typical person is not going to go into it. Let me tell you the real hurtful things I've experienced in my life. We all probably know somebody who wants, who's just dying to tell you that. But most people, you know, for you to go into that, cause again, I'm keep referring to it as sacred space.
My real hurts and my life, are sacred space and yeah, just recently in a message I've talked about growing up without a dad, you know, I'm not dropping that information quickly, you know, it's, there's gotta be a reason. There's gotta be a setup. There's gotta be a sense that you're actually listening a further sense that you could care about that.
Why would I tell you that? If I just think you're just going to blow that offer dismiss it. It takes some time.
Jon Miller: [00:13:08] Right.
Yeah.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:13:10] And it sounds like the difference between. Apathy and empathy is apathy is just saying, Oh, I hear what you're saying. Stop feeling like that. Whereas empathy saying, well, I'm going to pause here and really recognize where you're at.
And I'm going to jump into that problem with you and feel what you're feeling.
Cal Jernigan: [00:13:25] Apathy in its purest sense, is I don't really care.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:13:27] Yeah.
Cal Jernigan: [00:13:27] It's purest sense. You can tell me whatever you want to tell me. And again, if I'm not listening, I'm telling you I don't care. And if I'm dismissing what you're telling me, I'm telling you I don't care.
And if I'm telling you, you shouldn't feel that I'm telling you I don't care. Empathy is seriously trying to figure out what did you feel? Why did you feel it? How did it, what did it do to you? And then entering into that, where you, as a person who was telling me the story goes, that guy gets it. That guy gets it. That he's he's you understand?
And how you know, how true, how often are we truly understood when you're in a conversation? You feel like they just, they just took the time to go there.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:14:07] Yeah. Yeah. I've I've met a few people where you've talked to them and it's like, they're just so zoned in on kind of what you're saying. And you can tell, they're just, they're really listening to you.
And you shared this funny story a few weeks ago, where you were talking about your wife and how you were talking about something just going on in the house. And she said, Oh yeah, don't you remember? I told you that you're like, wait, what? Like. When did you never told me that, but she named the exact moment you were doing it.
You were getting food out of the fridge and she named yeah. Not you. But she got you. And you're like, okay. Yeah, you probably, you probably did tell me that then. And so I think when I get into situations where I'm required to listen to someone, I can be either an active listener or I can just kind of passively listen and really not catch everything that they're saying.
How would you, cause empathy is one thing, but how would you suggest that we, just give our whole attention to active listening on something.
Cal Jernigan: [00:15:03] Well, I think again, start, start here. If I, if you're telling me something and I'm looking over here and you keep talking okay, bad on you. Cause I'm obviously I'm looking over, I'm looking at the camera and you're talking to me and hey, is that a Nikon?
No, that's a, what is that? You know, I'm not here. You, you, you should figure out I'm not here. He w w w why is that so fascinating to him? You know what I'm saying? So the first thing has to be, you know, am I, am I present in the moment? Can you see that I'm present in the moment? I think so often the miscommunicate or the lack of communication, or the selective hearing, whatever we want to have, that it comes from the fact that you never got my attention before you started talking.
So I think that that becomes a crucial thing and, and you know, honestly in my life and if I can be real vulnerable here, I don't hear well to start with, you know, I don't have great hearing. So if, if my, if my wife or anyone else's talking to me and we're not, we're not looking at each other. I'm not making eye contact the odds of me understanding what you S I might hurt what you said.
I'm at her part of what you said. I might've heard you talking. But, but that you were talking to me and you wanted me to comprehend this. It's just, you know, that's way down. So it's gotta be, you know, make eye contact and then, and then let's lock and load here on, on what we're going to talk about. And again, talking about like in marriages, how many arguments are truly lost?
Because it's two deaf people. Two deaf people conversing and like, no one's hearing anything.
Jon Miller: [00:16:35] I was recently watching a really old interview of Mr. Rogers and Charlie Rose. And I thought it was so fascinating because Charlie Rose is the interviewer, right. That, halfway through the interview, Mr. Rogers flipped it around and all of a sudden was asking Charlie Rose questions.
And Charlie Rose was like having to think these deep up these deep answers and bring them out. If I think of one person that I know of in my past, my childhood, that was like the best listener, you know, somebody to like, I want to, if I want to listen, I want to listen like he did. It was Mr. Rogers. Like everything I've seen, the documentaries that have come out is just like, he knew how to listen.
Cal Jernigan: [00:17:16] And you just, you just said, you just said to me the absolute key. To knowing that somebody is listening to you and that the, the time that you're investing in that conversation is worth investing. He just said, he asked Charlie Rose these questions, the ability to ask questions. And, and honestly, I think I have married Lisa,
my wife, is the best questioner I've ever met. And, and you know, if you don't know how to ask questions you're, you're not going to be interesting at all. And, and nor are you going to be interested. So to be interested and interesting, you have, it's the art of taking what you just said, processing it, and then, you know what that makes me think, Oh, it makes me think this well, do you ever think that?
Do you ever, you know, so it's the idea of I'm, I'm, I'm really processing what you're saying, but it makes me then wonder this question and then probing deeper. And when you say, man, I just don't understand that. Tell me more, tell me more. That's inviting that's because so often we're like, am I boring you yet?
You know, am I like you had enough yet? But when you say, tell me more, tell me more. And you're actually going okay, well, okay. I'm lost right here because you said, and then it took me. But now were you saying, I know you're, you're, you're trying, you're trying to go on this journey with me and you're and we're going to have a great conversation. Too many times and too many conversations you get done with a conversation,
and one of those two parties knows a lot about the other, and the other one knows nothing about the other one. Because one person was engaged in asking questions and going there. The other person just thought, Oh, this is awesome. It's all about me. If you want to hear it cannot be about you equally. How can you hear it,
it'd be about you? It's going to be about you if you talk. If you want to understand if I want to know you, Jon, I have to let you talk. And I stop and you talk and then I go, I don't get it, or, wow. What did that do? Did that, did you ever have? And then all this, you know, I'm, I'm in, I'm engaged.
Jon Miller: [00:19:23] Yeah. I love what you're talking about,
like the, the phrase, tell me more. Are there any other like, questions that, that are really just good that people can like, can use as a matrix of like, this is a good question to practice asking.
Cal Jernigan: [00:19:35] Well, okay. One of our key staff people here, our business guy always has the expression help me to understand, help me to understand.
Okay. Well that's pretty disarming. All right. Okay. Here's what you're not getting. Help me to understand. Well, tell me more, just anything of little things you say that just indicate, I, I really do want, I want to be here. I want to be listening. I want to be in this. And, you know, there's all the, you know, again. Are we almost done here, you know, all the cues that we give, you know, tapping.
Yeah. You know, you know, you know, just like a yawn and rolling your eyes or like looking or looking past a person you're done listening. You're done listening. When your we're locking eyes and you're, you're, you're talking and I'm here. And, and then I'm asking what, you know, I'm not interested in what's going on over there.
I'm not looking at, I have no idea what time it is. It doesn't matter. This is the, you are the most important person in the room. And I'm conveying that by the fact that I'm listening to you, the best communicators are the ones who I think just that is who they are. They just know how to do that. And when you're done, and that's the thing, when.
You know, that you've heard this adage. It's been used in lots of different settings. I don't remember anything that that person said, but I remember what that person made me feel. It made me feel like I was the most important person on the planet because of the way they engaged. And it had to do with listening.
It was not about talking.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:21:03] You're talking about, you know, the verbal cues of somebody can just totally zone out and just check out and say, Hey, I'm done listening with you. Talk, listen to you, talking to you. And I think it's really easy to do that when you're in a conversation where you just know off the bat, you don't agree with this person. You know, coming out of a crazy political season, probably many conversations where sometimes you get approached and you're just like, Hey, I don't,
we necessarily want to have this conversation, so let's just avoid it. How can we just approach that type of situation? Not just politics, but just any conversation where we might not necessarily agree with somebody. But we want to be open and we want to be active in listening. How do we, how do we go about having that conversation with someone that we don't necessarily agree with?
Cal Jernigan: [00:21:52] Well, I think it's got to start with a, do you really even want to be in a conversation with that person. You know, and Saturday night live, does that spoof about the, you know, the, the girl at the party you wish you'd never asked a question of or something like that, you know, we all get in conversations where, you know, you're just not interested.
So I, I would say this, I wouldn't fake it. You know, if I'm, if I'm in a, some gathering and, and I know that this person's going to go off on something that I have absolutely zero tolerance for hearing. I'm not going to pretend that I'm going to listen. I'm not going to pretend like I care. I'm not going to go through any of those motions, you know?
And so I either have to care or I don't care. And that that's an acid test, you have to that's in your own spirit and soul, the heart. If you're not the least bit interested, don't try to pretend like you are, because everything's going to give you away.
Jon Miller: [00:22:39] How do you get, how do you get out of a conversation like that without sounding like, like, no, dude, I know you're, you're an idiot.
Like I'm outta here, you know.
Cal Jernigan: [00:22:48] I'm not really sure what to tell you. Just do it graciously, do it kindly, do it quickly. You know, because again, the longer it goes, the more awkward it gets, I only have a limited amount of time. Period. I only have a limited amount of words to use. I'm only got, you know, Conversations a resource. And I'm just not going to invest a lot of my time and resource in, in somebody who, no matter what you say, there's nothing I could say that would change what you're saying.
And I, through the depth of who I am, I've heard what you've said. I know what you, I know what you're about. I fundamentally don't agree. Now, if, if you're going okay, I know you don't agree. But, but can I, can I just ask you to show me what it is you don't agree or agree with? Can you just help me to understand why is it so hard for you? Now
you've asked me something I could answer. Now I'm interested because it's not just what you're, you're telling me that I've already got, but now you're going give me some information and then, you know, and then I would be engaged more. But all of us and, and everyone who's watching this, you, you just get into too many conversations where,
you're you're truly are not interested because the person has played the cards on the table. You've looked at him and go, I'm just, I'm not going to go there. And it can be any number. It could be some conspiracy theory. You know? And you're just like going there. Yeah. That's, that's the nuttiest thing I think I've ever heard.
And there are people who would just go, that's the stupidest thing. That's the nuttiest thing. It's the dumbest thing. It's moronic. You know, whatever, whatever the subject is and if that's you and that's your spirit, don't, don't waste their time.
Jon Miller: [00:24:20] Oh, that's good. Yeah. Like it's almost more caring to be like, you know, I, I just can't,
engage in this because it's going to waste your time and there's no way we're going to get any value out of this.
Cal Jernigan: [00:24:30] But I would say this, and this is the caution to all, to all of us. Be careful before you close your mind. Cause that's the trouble with somebody's story who is different than your story. Somebody who's point who's different than your point.
If you believe that, you know, I have know everything you're going to say, I've heard it all, blah, blah, blah. And that might be true, it's probably not true. It's probably you've already made your mind up and you've closed your, you know, you've closed the gate and nothing else is going to come through that.
I would, I would say, be slow to do that. You know, be slow to get into arguments and be slow to close your mind that that person has nothing to say.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:25:10] Yeah. I like what you're saying here about being slow to, to just closing our mind and shutting the topic off immediately. And it reminds me of earlier this summer, you, we went through this series the love beyond, and you talked about loving beyond our story.
And you had this illustration where you talked about a car crash, right? And if you you're driving alongside the road and you pull up to this car crash, you don't immediately get out of your car and start pointing fingers and say, did you do this? Who did that? You would get out and you would help, or you would pray or you would call 911 or do something.
And I, I thought it was a beautiful example of, of what we should be doing of, going beyond and, and loving people and caring about people before jumping to our own conclusions. And so I was just wondering if you could just expand on that idea because I think it is a great illustration, like I said, for just how to listen to people and to really be there.
But I'd love to just have you expand on that some more.
Cal Jernigan: [00:26:07] And you just said it, we jumped to conclusions. So again, you start to tell me something about your story and all of a sudden I go, well, I can tell you exactly what happened. The minute I reached that point. I'm done. You're done. It's over. All of that,
we've been talking about, came to an end when I jumped to the conclusion or I get reached, you know, the, the line, well, this way you should have done. Which, you know, nobody likes being in a conversation with somebody, well, you know what you should have done. And then I'll you like, Oh yeah. Well, I felt like a total idiot because that's not what I did.
And it's all wouldn't even came to me and I never would do that. That was an illustration, as you said, you know? So if there was an accident on the road, And you drove right up to it. The immediate thing you would not be doing is trying to figure out who's at fault and you know, who's to blame and, you shouldn't have done this.
You know, the immediate thing you do is just dive in and try to help. The facts of what happened will come out later. You know, all the details will come out later. And especially as Christians, you know, if we're going to say, we're not, we're going to see some horrible thing happen. And, and until we know exactly what caused it, we're not going to get involved,
we're not going to help, we're not going to come to the aid of somebody. That was the point I was making that's craziness. Get in help do what you can do. And then you find out, well, this guy, this guy was drunk and this, the accident was because this guy and this poor guy, and, you know, then you can go, okay, all right,
now I understand more. And especially, and again, and that was in the context of, you know, so many racial things that are happening yeah. In our country. We're so quick. And, and, and this is where I think we get manipulated by media. You know, there, there are always agendas of people trying to get you to fill out this visceral gut reaction out of people,
so I'm going to slant the news this way or whatever, and we're very, very vulnerable to being marketed. Ahmed Aubrey gets killed and all of a sudden you go, well, you know, he should have never been in that neighborhood. Or, you know, well, he walked through that house and that house should be in built and he looked like he was robbing the house, you know, w it's like, don't.
A poor guy got shot, you know, start there and, and leave the best about it before you just immediately start taking sides. And taking sides as drawing a conclusion, jumping to a conclusion. Well, he shouldn't have been there. He shouldn't been in that part of town. I don't know him. I don't know anything about that part of town.
I don't know. I don't want any of that. I just know it's really tragic, you know, when it's things like that happen. And if you want to understand, especially as we're talking about racial issue, if you want to understand somebody of a different race, by the very virtue of the phrase, a different race, you can not project onto them, your life experiences.
If you're not of that race. The only chance you've got to understand what they've gone through is have them go explain it to me. Don't jump to conclusions. That you'd be all different if you had gone through that.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:28:57] Yeah, no one. And that sounds a lot like what we talked about, talked about at the top of the podcast, even of saying, Hey, I see my life through this perspective or this lens.
And you know, like you said, we can't just jump to the conclusion.
Cal Jernigan: [00:29:09] My life is the only life I've lived. My lens is the only lens I've got. It's my natural default. Of course, I'm going to immediately go there. But the point of listening to try to understand somebody else's stories go, you're not me. You didn't live my life and I'm not you and I didn't live your life.
So you tell me about your story. And then I'll try my hardest through the lenses I've got that. I can't change to begin to get my brain around what you went through. And only when I've done that with with full integrity and sincerity, can I ever begin to think I might have done it differently.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:29:44] Well, that is good.
Okay. Guys, I think that is a good place to just kind of wrap things up leave people thinking about just everything that's been talked about. Yeah.
Jon Miller: [00:29:54] Yeah. I feel like this might be a great podcast to listen to a couple of times. I'm just, I'm just going to say that out loud. Because there is so much there to be thinking about, especially,
learning to listen. Thank you so much for joining us today. For the Beyond The Lines Podcast. We record here at Central Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Our church is pursuing the mantra of Love Beyond which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace. If you're interested at all learning about our church, check us at CentralAZ.com
that's CentralAZ.com. We have online services as well as a bunch of different locations in the Phoenix Metro area, if you're local. We will see you at next month's episode of Beyond The Lines until then start loving beyond your lines.
Cal Jernigan: [00:30:38] Listen up.