In this special episode of Beyond The Lines, get to know hosts, Jon Miller and Clayton Eddleman, a little better and listen in as they reflect on the past 3 episodes of Beyond The Lines.
New episodes every other Wednesday!
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
In this special episode of Beyond The Lines, get to know hosts, Jon Miller and Clayton Eddleman, a little better and listen in as they reflect on the past 3 episodes of Beyond The Lines.
New episodes every other Wednesday!
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
Jon Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. In a world filled with so much hate and division, we just want to do something about that. We have these lines that we draw in our lives, where we feel like that is our limit. We can't listen past this line. We can't love past this line. We can't understand someone who is on the other side of the line.
But our goal with this podcast, it's to treat all people with the dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree with them. My name is Jonathan Miller. I'm one of our hosts today and I'm joined by my cohost Clayton Eddleman. Welcome. I'm so happy to be here with you. It's going to be a good day.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:32] Thanks, Jonathan.
I'm excited for this episode.
Jon Miller: [00:00:34] Today's going to be a little bit different where we're going to have occasionally there's going to be some podcasts where it's just me and Clayton, and we're going to be talking today a little bit about ourselves. So you know who we are.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:44] That's right.
Jon Miller: [00:00:45] And, uh, we're also going to be just reflecting on what we've learned so far from our, uh, from Cal Jernigan.
Who's been on our podcast for the last four episodes, including episode zero. If you count that. And, and yeah, we've just learned so much, but I also want to learn about Clayton. I want you guys to know who we are.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:02] Yeah, well I think it's important too, cause if, if you're associated with Central and uh, you come to one of our campuses or maybe you're in, you're a part of the online campus, you might see us,
in these scenarios, but you could be finding this podcast on, on YouTube or Spotify or anywhere. And maybe you're like, hey, who are these guys? What are they about? And so it's just a fun episode where we kind of just get to say, hey, this is who we are. Uh, you get to learn some stuff about us, and then we're just going to reflect, like you said, on some stuff that Cal has taught us.
Well, let's just start off with this. Like, Jonathan, I don't even know this, but where did you grow up and like, kind of what's your, your upbringing and family or whatnot?
Jon Miller: [00:01:39] Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. Um, I grew up, I was a homeschooler. I'm from Iowa. I lived in the forest. Um, away from all people and civilization and, uh, you know, I was raised to be a Christian and, and all that good stuff.
Um, I think if you think of every negative stereotype, almost every negative stereotype of a homeschool family. That's kind of what I grew up in is just that we were secluded away from society in our house, you know, and I had loving parents. They were great, but they kind of just chose, like, this is how we're going to raise our kids.
We're going to be over here. And, you know, the rest of the world is going to be out there. And we're going to visit the world to get groceries kind of thing. And, uh, the only friends I really kind of grew up with were those at church where you would visit church, we do the Sunday and the Wednesday thing.
And that's kind of the only people I knew for a long, long time. And so I remember, uh, you know, the first time I think I ever spent outside the house for a long, significant period of time was going to summer camp. And then that was life changing. So I wanted to be a counselor and I became a counselor and, uh, and, and, and it was a painful experience.
I was, you know, I didn't have any social skills. I didn't know how to talk to people. I didn't, especially not girls. Um, like I, it was not good. And, and also had this weird. I won't go into the super details were thing where I always wanted to be married, but when I was like 10, I was like, I want to be a married man.
And I want to be, you know, for a whole bunch of different reasons.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:03:08] Yep. And mission accomplished, right?
Jon Miller: [00:03:10] Yeah. Yeah. I got married really, uh, early, but I didn't look like that was ever going to happen. Um, because I kind of made it like an idol. If I was going to use a church word. Um, an idol out of, which I started worshiping this idea of being married.
And so, Oh, that really hurt my chances with ladies, because nobody wants to be, you know, this guy's weird. And he obviously is way too fascinated with the idea of marriage. So you have a stick away, I'm going to stay away from this guy. And so I just didn't and it also made it really nervous around girls like for some reason, I thought every girl I had to meet, I had to consider if she was a good
candidate. Uh, which is just dumb, uh, for any, anybody out there who is acting like that, just not a good way to live. Um, or treat women like, you know, they're human beings. So totally. But I, I, you know, I felt like I wasn't doing that when I was, cause I was so fascinated and infatuated with this idea of being married.
I wanted to be a parent. I want to do all these things. Um, and it wasn't really, till I got rid of that notion and kind of gave that up to God that I actually met, you know, the best person ever who turned out to be my wife later.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:16] That's awesome.
Jon Miller: [00:04:17] Um, and I, that was really cool and that, you know, I digress, that's not the question you asked. But, you know, I gained, I started gaining social skills.
It was painful. I went to a small Christian college, which was perfect for me because it still felt like I was being thrown into like the deep water, because I just not used to people.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:35] Yeah.
Jon Miller: [00:04:35] And, uh, I slowly gain social skills as I grew up. So I have a lot of stories of being that outcast kid, um, and the annoying kid and the kid who's just obnoxious and, um, probably way too judgmental.
Um, probably I was, I was awful. I was very hypocritical and judgmental of other people and their life decisions. And that's just not, you know, I've learned a lot on how to love beyond in my day. Uh, my short days, very short. I'm not that old, I'm only 27. Um, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of a convoluted story of me.
Um, what about, what about you? What where'd you how'd you get here? Uh, was your up bringing? Where are you from?
Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:15] Yeah, well, I'm just thinking back even to what you're telling me, like Iowa, that's a place I've never been. A place I don't know a whole lot about, I know it's like always first in primaries. And I believe the Blackhawks, uh, is that an Iowa University?
Jon Miller: [00:05:30] Uh, you know, I'm not a big sports person.
One second, the, the, all the Iowa people are mad at me. There's Iowa state, there's Iowa State
Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:37] Maybe it was Iowa state.
Jon Miller: [00:05:38] And then
they also have the Hawkeyes.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:40] The Hawkeyes. That's
what I'm thinking of.
Jon Miller: [00:05:41] Only college
football for Nebraska and Iowa. It's a very big deal. They don't have national teams.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:45] Yeah, that's all I know about Iowa. Um, but where I grew up as nowhere near Iowa, my, uh, so I was actually born in Germany.
My parents got married, they graduated from Grand Canyon University. And I guess we should say not sponsored. So, um, but yeah, they graduated from there. Uh, they got married while they were there and then they found out that they were pregnant with me a few months before they were going to Germany for a two year mission stint, uh, being missionaries.
And so. I was born over there and moved back to the States, um, at a very young age, like one and a half or something.
Jon Miller: [00:06:16] So you can't speak German?
Clayton Eddleman: [00:06:17] Nine. And yeah. And so move back. I've been grown up pretty much my entire life. And so I'm kind of from North Phoenix area. Um, and that's where I that's my neck of the woods.
And yeah, I've got, um, no, all sisters, that's what I grew up with and I love him to death. But, um, Yeah. So I grew up, uh, in North Phoenix and man, how did I wind up at Central? I'm just trying to think. Um, yeah, so I went to the University of Arizona, which for some of our, uh, people who attend Central, especially our Tempe campus or our Mesa campus, um, that's a bad word is saying, Hey, I'm a U of A grad and go out, that's bare down.
Cause everyone's an ASU fan at this point, um, with it being so close. So that's where I went and I went to school down there. And was at the time actually wanting to pursue a career in the medical field and had this kind of crazy turn of events. Um, a lot of conversations with God, which we don't have to go into detail cause that's a long story. But eventually changed my, my career path completely and said, hey, I'm going to go into full-time ministry.
Um, and so after that I started pursuing opportunities. Um, you know, started working at a church camp in Northern California in Santa Cruz. That's actually how I met my wife. Uh, we met back in 2014 and so, um, just was constantly pursuing ministry stuff. And I went to, um, an internship. Well, actually, before, after I graduated, I went, uh, served as a short term missionary with an organization overseas.
Uh, worked in the country of Slovenia, which is a part of old Yugoslavia. And so it's kind of like the Northeast it's next to Northeastern part of Italy, uh, South of Austria and like just Northwest of Croatia. So they've got a little slice of like the Adriatic sea, um, beautiful country and made a lot of good friends there.
And just had an awesome time. But then after that I went and served at an internship program at a church in Sacramento. And after that was serving as a middle school pastor at a church in Cupertino and, uh, the Bay area, Silicon Valley. So, uh, you think of like Apple's headquarters, Google's headquarters.
That's where I was at, which for me was awesome because I've grown up. You know, being somebody who's kind of an Apple enthusiast. I love tech. I love, um, just kind of learning about everything that's going on, uh, in that realm. So it was really cool to be there, but, uh, yeah. And so I I've been in ministry for, um, you know, counting those years and, and in college where I was serving.
Right close to seven years now. Um, and so it's been a joy, it's been a fun ride and wound up at Central. Actually have a friend that I grew up going to church with, uh, at a church in Peoria, CCV and, uh, Dakota McGrath. He is our student worship pastor for CSM at Central. And we were just talking one day about ministry.
And, uh, he was like, hey, you know, Central is looking to, uh, fill some positions, and so I took a look at them and that's short story, how I wound up here, but yeah, that's kind of a, that's a snapshot of how I got to Central where I kind of grew up and, uh, yeah, recently married. I mentioned I met my wife and.
Jon Miller: [00:09:26] Yeah, congratulations.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:27] Uh. Mount Herman.
Yeah. Thank you. And so we got married back in October of 2020, and it's been a lot of fun so far.
Jon Miller: [00:09:35] That's great. Yeah. Um, I didn't. I don't think I said, uh, how I, I don't think I said anything about how it got to Central.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:41] Yeah. How did you get here? Yeah, cause I mean, a boy from Iowa. Winds up at, at a church and in Phoenix, Arizona, how's that worked out?
Jon Miller: [00:09:48] Yeah. I mean, I love writing. So originally I thought, which, by the way you said you wanted to be a doctor. I mean, I could definitely see you, like in supporting like the doctor coat and like the white, I don't know those lab coats.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:00] Yeah. I think that'll be my Halloween costume from here on out.
Jon Miller: [00:10:03] I feel like you'd look good in that.
Like it, it would fit, it fits. So I see, I see where you're going just from an aesthetic point of view.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:09] Yeah. Well, my handwriting surely fits the bill of a doctor's handwriting. It's uh, it's not good. So I've had to adopt like the all capitals cause then it's a little bit more legible at that point.
Jon Miller: [00:10:18] Oh, okay. Yeah. That's how I do my emails.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:20] Just all caps? Jon is really
passionate about this email thing.
Jon Miller: [00:10:24] That's what people think do. Um, yeah, me, Central. So I went to a small college, um, because I felt like, you know, going to camp God said, I want you in ministry for the rest of your life. And I originally wanted to be a writer. I want to do journalism and, and write.
And, uh, I got published when I was like 16 or something like that.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:43] Did you really?
Jon Miller: [00:10:43] Yeah, just in a small magazine. And I got an, a book by Gary Chapman. I mean, he didn't write any of it, but he did a bunch of people contributed and I was one of them. It was a devotional book. Um.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:52] That's really cool.
Jon Miller: [00:10:53] As a kid. Yeah. And so I wanted to write, I want, I thought that was where I was going.
I love it. I love creating things. That's why we're here today is I like creating things and making content. So, um, And this is one of the things I love to do as well. And, but God said, I want you in ministry. And so I thought, okay, I went to camp that must be student ministry. And so I went in, started getting a degree in student ministry and I started working at a church interning and basically working for free for a long time, uh, for years.
And so, uh, I got married and we. We were going to have a kid. And my wife was in full-time ministry too. She was doing children's ministry, but we realized after having Ezra, our son, we need to flip-flop this because you can't be full-time in ministry and take care of a kid. She was, she did have like Ezra in her office.
It was not working well. Um, and the, at the church we were it didn't look like there was any chance of me ever getting a full-time job. So I was like, I need to find a different place. And so I just, um, I was like, I, you know, I started this video ministry at that church. And so I was like, you know what, uh, I'm not sure about student ministry right now.
I need it. I need to take a step back for various reasons. And so I started looking for churches that needed a video person and, you know, you have to be a pretty big church to need it. Like a full-time video person. And the first place I applied to, I applied to was Central Christian Church in Arizona. I was in Nebraska at the time at a church and, and they, the ones that hired me, it was amazing.
I was not good. I was not good. I don't know how I got hired, but
Clayton Eddleman: [00:12:22] You've only gotten better I'm hoping.
Jon Miller: [00:12:24] Oh yeah,
I'm much better now. You know, I'm pretty good. But, um, if I do say so myself. But, uh, but they hired me then what I wasn't good. And. Um, somehow they developed me and, and then, you know, I finished my master's in divinity, the most pretentious church degree I've ever heard of, like, at least the name of it
anyways. I don't know who, who named that degree? Masters of divinity. I'm not like, am I a master of the divine now? Like, no.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:12:52] Essentially.
Jon Miller: [00:12:53] But it's a really big degree that a lot of people in ministry get like, um, in pastors. And so I got it because I thought me and my wife would be called into missions.
So I didn't want to be a pastor with that degree. Even though a lot of pastors get that degree. I just wanted to be in missions and reach people for Jesus. That's what I wanted to do. Um, but then I got it. And this opportunity for online campus pastor opened up and I was like, man, this makes sense. Like I have all these video and design abilities and you know, I have this pastor degree, I've been trained.
I've worked in youth ministry. This seems to fit me. And so I got hired on in July. Or June of 2020, and we've kind of been riding this rollercoaster of figuring out what it means to be an online campus at Central. But man, so many people all over the country all over the world are being reached with the message of Jesus um from Central and I'm getting to meet them.
And that that's been a really cool experience for sure. So that's kind of my story, I think. Of how I got to Central, but let's talk about, like love beyond as a church and this podcast. I think it's time to transition from ourselves. Like this podcast is definitely more than just you and me. It's not like a personality podcast, although we want you to know who we are because you know, our role in this podcast is to make sure we're listening well.
And we're asking good questions. So you might not get, hear a lot from us because if we're doing our job well, And we're not doing a disservice to you and the people we invite onto this podcast, then we don't talk much. I think that's a good role for us to have. Um, so we thought it'd be good for you to get to know us a little bit and know who we are.
And we can have a little bit of fun in the, in the process.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:14:35] Right.
Jon Miller: [00:14:35] Let's talk, let's move into beyond the lines. Um, what, what let's hear it. Like what, what is beyond the lines to you Clayton?
Clayton Eddleman: [00:14:43] Yeah. So when I think of beyond the lines, um, we have this whole series at, at Central this summer talking about love beyond fill in the blank.
And, um, one of the weeks that I think stood out the most is, uh, loving beyond your story. And I, I kinda think that's, that's what it means for me is as a follower of Christ, as someone who has said, hey, I love Jesus. Jesus is my Lord, my savior. Um, I just want to replicate what he did, what he said, um, and make that known to everyone.
And so kind of my personal mission statement, which I think ties into, beyond the lines is to make the invisible Christ visible. So you and I, and everyone else that lives right now, um, and that has lived since Jesus is, uh, death and resurrection. We haven't had the opportunity to sit down and be like the disciples and physically see Jesus. For me,
I think if I were a disciple or somebody who was living back in the days of Jesus, it'd be so much easier to believe because he's right there in front of me. But you and I, we've got our Bible and that's about it. Right? Uh, and, and the history of the church since then. And so for me, loving beyond, um, is saying, hey, here is here's Jesus to me, and he's done something in me.
Um, and I believe he's given me hope and purpose and has called me to a life that is so much greater. And because of that, I want to love you and go beyond what society is telling me to do or what the world is telling me to do on how I should love you, and really just treat you with, with value and respect and empathy and listen to you.
So that's kind of what love beyond for me means. And how do you, how do I love beyond the lines? You, you see Jesus hung out with people who were not like him at all. Um, here's what the sinners and, uh, you know, he gets criticized for that and they're saying, hey, why are you hanging out with all these people?
Or you're having a meal with them. And Jesus is saying like, those are like the hospitals for the sick people, right? And those are the people who need me. Those are the people who need to hear about, uh, my message and what I'm about. And I think about that as well. Like it's good. You know, I've, I've got Christian friends and family, but I would say I love my friends who aren't believers and people who I don't even know as friends necessarily just as much as I love
those who are believers, because I want them to experience what Christ has done for me and what he can do for them too. So that's a, long-winded answer to that question, but that's just kinda what it means for me. so.
Jon Miller: [00:17:27] I like what
you pointed out about how we don't get to see Jesus as much today. I think there's a verse in the Bible somewhere where it says Jesus was the image of the invisible God.
And uh, sometimes that verse makes me a little bit angry because cause I'm like, I didn't get to see him. I want to see the image of the invisible God. And like people did see him. Um, and somewhere else in the Bible, I'm really bad at verse numbers and stuff. I'm a pastor, I don't know, I'm somewhere else in the Bible.
It says, um, even though you haven't seen him, you still believe, even though you haven't touched him, you know, you, you trust in him, you would follow him and you trust in the hope that he brings. And, um, so that gives me a little bit comfort because you know that, I think Paul wrote that he's talking to these people where yeah,
you didn't get to see him. And that's such a good point where I think Jesus, what he was trying to show people while he was here is that you get to be me to everyone, you know, as I'm living in as the Holy Spirit is with you to everyone that you love. And when you love beyond those lines. And, and I love my, one of my favorite passages of Jesus.
One of the things that I just love about him so much is when he talks to the Samaritan woman, I think it's John four. The Samaritan woman at a well, and he blows, like sometimes we don't realize how revolutionary that is. Just the fact that he was talking to a woman. Men did not talk to women and, and, respectfully at all.
Like, it's just not something that happened. Especially a woman they didn't know. I mean, maybe they talked to their wives, but they did not treat women on the same level in any way and that's wrong. But something, and that was just the culture of the day. Right. But Jesus went up to her and just talked to her, a woman. Next.
She was a Samaritan, and Jews, Jesus, a Jew, hated Samaritans and Samaritans hated Jews. Like absolutely deplored them. It was awful. It, but Jesus didn't say anything about her being a Samaritan. At all. He didn't say anything about her being a woman, either. He just talked to her when the disciples showed up, they're like, what are you doing? Then,
you're and next she was a sinner. She made mistakes in her life. She had, Jesus said, that said you had five wives or husband. Huh 5 wife, he had five, you had five husbands. Like she was a woman, a Samaritan, and a sinner, and Jesus was talking to her. Those are all people you would avoid just with one of those categories that Jewish man would avoid at all costs.
Like they would not talk to them. They just treat them as nothing. And Jesus completely blew those lines out of the water altogether. It's mind blowing. And I love that. That Jesus is willing to do that. Like go way beyond what the culture expects him to, what his friends, what his own disciples would expect him to do.
And he's like, well, yeah, of course, I'm going to talk to this person, this person, you know, my father made her. Like, she's in the image of God. Of course, I'm going to talk to her and love her. And you know, what amazing thing happened is God used her to reach that entire village. Yeah. Like it wasn't a male pastor that went and reached that, that it was a woman who was in a people group that all Jews hated.
And she was a sinner that reached that entire village to know Jesus.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:20:46] Right. Yeah. And she shared her story and her experience of what Jesus made her feel. If I recall correctly, uh, she goes back into the town and says like, here's the man that told me everything about me. And, uh, I just think about that.
And, uh, and in a sense, you know, she feels known, she feels valued. And we talked about it, uh, in one of our episodes, uh, Cal mentioned the adage of, you know, it's not about, um, what someone says, do you necessarily in a conversation, but sometimes it's about how they make you feel. And that just makes you feel loved and listened to and cared for.
And I think about that with Jesus and the Samaritan woman, like that guy just made her feel something to where she was able to go back to her village and say, hey, let me tell you about this man. I just met, which is such a cool story.
Jon Miller: [00:21:35] Man. I love that story. And I think it illustrates what we're trying to do with this podcast. Is we're trying to subvert these expectations, that our culture on us, I am a white male and, um, you know, 27 years old.
So therefore there's a lot of people, groups. I think my culture is say. You know, don't talk to them, you know, they're not as valuable. They, you know, our culture, maybe wouldn't blatantly say that to me, but there are expectations that, you know, I wouldn't talk to these people. I wouldn't talk to these people.
I might not even talk to another white guy who's in his sixties and treat them with respect because that's, some of our culture is like, so against these age gaps because we communicate differently.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:22:14] Yeah. Boomers and millennials. And millennials and gen Z. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Jon Miller: [00:22:19] It's like the, uh, that term, uh, okay
boomer. You know, it's, it's a negative, it's derogatory. It's meant to be like, Oh, you're old and you don't understand us. And I don't care about you. You know, I don't care about your opinion, your wisdom, anything. Okay, boomer. And it's like, my culture says to do that, you know, and I don't want to do that.
Yeah, they're just, where are we going to get? I, uh, what was it? Cal said that like, when we shrink our circles, you know, we're, we're sprinkling our souls. Like these circles of people that were willing to listen to and talk to we're shrinking our very own souls. That blew my mind.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:22:56] Yeah, no, definitely. And he mentioned something about like echo chambers and you know, when, when we only love people who are there, who aren't like us and similar to us, we're just creating a smaller circle.
Like you mentioned, um, And so I don't know about you, but is there a time where you've experienced somebody maybe reaching out of their circle, um, and, and loving you kind of, uh, beyond or going beyond the lines for you?
Jon Miller: [00:23:21] One that sticks out really clearly in my mind is one this one time when I was working at camp.
It was my first year as a counselor. I was actually a, what they call a junior counselor, which just means we were younger and we got paid a lot less. Which counselors don't get paid much at all.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:36] We don't get paid a whole lot at all.
Jon Miller: [00:23:38] I think I got 50 bucks a week or something like that, but it was room and board to say, if you count that in, you know, it's something, but, and then like I counselors got like $300 a week, which again, isn't that a lot for a summer job if you think about it.
No, but, uh, what was. So when I was a junior counselor, I was coming from that kind of seclusion, not a lot of social skills, like nil social skills, and a lot of judge, like judgementalness, a lot of hypocrisy. Um, and I just, I, it showed in how I treated people and people, none of the other counselors, I think, wanted to be a part of me.
They didn't, they didn't like that. Understandably. Like nobody wants to be judged every moment, like in, see it in the eyes of that person. And that's what I was doing as I was judging people. And I felt like I was better. Um, the weird twisted part of that is that there was no person. I judged more than myself.
And so. Well, a big problem with that was my own insecurity is what Cal was talking about in that I didn't feel like I was good enough. And so I had to pick out, you know, and I judged myself a lot. Like good enough to be loved by God. And so I would then judge other people as well, like, because they couldn't like, okay, I need to make myself feel better somehow.
So I'm going to judge them and see how they're worse than me, even though, because I feel like I'm not good enough. And so I was not a fun person to be around. I did not understand that at the time. And there's two counselors that stick out in my mind. Um, one of them, his name is Brandon. He was just this kind of, I don't know, he wasn't a hippie, but he had, you know, he's like, he's that camp guy who walked around and just bare feet all the time.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:25:15] We all have that guy.
He had this giant beard. Um, and just like, be like off sitting by a tree meditating, you know, kind of guy. Love this guy. And he like. I, I guarantee that he saw what was going on in me. He, he knew that it wasn't fun to be around this person, but he loved me anyways. And he would talk to me and we would pray together.
And, uh, he would, he would uplift in me the good things that he saw in me. And at the time I was like, yeah, I must be a good guy, but thinking back. I, I guarantee he, he saw what I was doing to people, but he also saw what I was doing to myself. And he also, but he also saw me as a valuable person, despite my many, many flaws.
And, uh, and that changed me. And there was another counselor and, uh, his name was Mike. He was this huge guy, like big buff guy, like bald and like intimidating. And he took me aside once and he said, John, You judge people. And he just said it in my face, like but it and like, and that is not okay. You need to stop.
And that was it. That was basically the conversation that I can hear or I can remember. And it blew my mind. I was like, okay. People can tell? Like, I wasn't saying these things out loud, but I barely, like, this was the first time I realized that these things I was saying about people in my head, just they illustrated themselves in how I acted toward others.
And he's like, you gotta stop. Yeah. And that was mind blowing to me that he loved me enough. And he said it in a loving way. Um, and I, and I really, really appreciated it. It, it, it's definitely a tact. You have to say that tactfully, but it was set in such a way where, like I knew he cared about me. It wasn't that he just like, was done with me as a, as an annoying pester ridden person.
It was that he, he loved me enough to say something like that. And he'd said it in a way that I just knew he cared. And so, uh, yeah, that, that those are two illustrations and they changed, they started to change in me what I needed to be changed. And it was really painful. It was a really painful summer for me.
Um, but I needed that. I really needed that. Um, and people love, love beyond they loved me beyond the lines that they had drawn the, these lines where it's like, that guy is awful, you know, like. I understand now why they didn't want to, most of the counselors just avoided me. Yeah. Yeah. So what about you?
What have you, um, w how have you experienced that in your life? Have you experienced being loved beyond the lines?
Yeah, I think a lot of the stories that come to my mind I'll have to deal kind of with culture. And, uh, as you said, you know, w we're both white, uh, if you can't tell and, and, um, and so for me, you know, I grew up in a, in a white suburban neighborhood.
Uh, my schools, my churches, those types of experiences, I've always been around people kind of like me. And, uh, I think back to my time in Cupertino, as a student pastor, uh, one, I loved Cupertino because it was just a melting pot of all different cultures, um, and ethnicities. And it was just so cool. I mean, you drive down the street, you've got an Indian restaurant, a Thai restaurant, Korean barbecue.
You've got Mexican everything. So, uh, foods one way to get to my heart. Uh, but I think about this time, uh, where, uh, I was at that church in Cupertino and we went on a mission trip down to Ensenada and we were building houses and we're, we're doing all this work and the family that, uh, that we're building the house for,
didn't didn't have much. Um, and what they did was they gathered, uh, I don't know if it was their own chickens that they had gathered and killed and cooked, or if they went to the store, but they went all out and they just made a huge feast for us. Which at the time, um, didn't, I didn't think much of because like, hey, we're working, like, this'll be our lunch for today.
Um, but as I reflected on it more in the moment where, uh, they're saying, hey, come inside our house, sit down. Like, here's our furniture. Uh, take a seat here. Like we want to just, just hang out with you and love you. And I don't, I don't share that story just because it's, hey, we're missionaries on this trip.
We, we built a house, you know, this is. The payment or the reward like that, that wasn't it at all. The way that that family just brought us in as their own. Um, and just said, hey, like, we're, we're so thankful for you. Uh, not thankful because you're just building as a house, but like your brothers and sisters in Christ to us, and we just want to love you and cherish you.
And for me, it's like, whoa, like I'm on this, this trip because I wanted to come down and. Uh, and, you know, share the resources that God has given me and my church at that time and bless a family. But, but it returned like we were being blessed so much more, uh, because his family just said, hey, it doesn't matter.
Like, if you look different than us, doesn't matter if you're from California, like. We're all part of the same family here, and we love you and we care about you. And so that's kind of a moment in history for me that sticks out of this family just brought us in and really, um, went beyond the lines of kind of norms or just even practices.
So yeah, that's a story that will forever kind of sit with me.
Jon Miller: [00:30:41] I think it's fairly humbling or in circumstances like that when we realize, and sometimes it's not obvious, like you said. To begin with what what's happening. What kind of love is being shown to you? Um, sometimes we're used to it, I guess, having enough food.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:57] Yeah. That's kinda like, my mindset was like, all right, we're on a very strict schedule of constructing and building and it's like, all right, here's our 30 to an hour, like lunch break. A 30 minute to one hour lunch break. And so it's just like, go, go, go. That's kind of how my brain sometimes thinks. Uh, but it was a moment where it was like, no, like,
don't worry about what's what's coming next. So what's around the corner. Just be in this moment of how this family wants to just hang out with and love you.
Jon Miller: [00:31:24] I don't know how the food was? It was probably maybe different than your
Clayton Eddleman: [00:31:26] Oh, it was totally different. And like, that's always intimidating, you know?
Uh, it's so easy. I remember going on a trip to Israel, Palestine when I was in eighth grade. And at that time, my food palette was, um, if it wasn't pizza or like a hamburger or a steak, like I didn't want it. Okay. And now I would go on a trip like that and be like, I could eat a ton of different things, but yeah, food is always something where it pushes you outside your comfort zone.
And you're like, ah, it's not like that trip. I, I lost like eight or 10 pounds and I was just like, I don't want to eat the food there. But, um, yeah, I think when it comes to food, it's like always intimidating to kind of go that next step. Um, yeah. So.
Jon Miller: [00:32:07] Yeah, sometimes it's loving beyond just to try to stomach like get it down.
It really is. Uh, because of not being used to it, this is like, yeah, fine food to them, but they're just used to it in a different, you know, a pallete, like you said. And sometimes it's loving beyond just to make sure you can eat it, like make sure you eat it and eat it graciously type thing. Definitely. We want to kind of do a recap of what our guests have talked about so far.
And for right now, this is the first one of these types of episodes. Um, we've had Cal on for four episodes. And so I have a few things that I thought were really good. And we're just gonna talk about a few of them. Um, there are so many, so many, uh, I would just encourage you to go listen to those episodes again, if you haven't already check out those episodes, they are really, really good.
The last four episodes of coming to this one, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta listen to them. Um, One of the things I think I've already talked about is that Cal said fear constricts and restricts. Fear shrinks your soul. So that's exactly what I was talking about earlier with the circling, when fear reigns you're going backwards and faith is going to push you on and out.
And I think that's, that's something even with just as simple as food. Yeah. We can't be afraid of food and never tasted it. I think in my two year old, he w he's like, I don't like this. I put it like a chicken nugget in front of him. Cause he hasn't had that particular type of chicken nugget. He's like, I don't like it.
I was like, you haven't tasted it. He's like afraid it's going to be something different. It's going to not taste good. And then when he tastes it, he's like, Oh, this is amazing. I'm going to eat five of them. And so it's like sometimes fear can restrict things like that too. I just think. It's simple,
illustration of food can really apply to our, to people as well. It's like, we're afraid of stepping out, especially picky eaters. Like I used to be, um, stepping out and trying something new because we were like, oh, that's going to be awful. I'm going to hate it. It's going to be a waste of time, waste of money or waste of my, my palette or something, you know, like, uh, but
we restrict ourselves in our circle is closed. We don't get to have those new experiences. Like, and then you have the opposite side of the spectrum, which is the foodies who are like, are like trying everything possible. And I'm sure they don't like everything that they try, but they're expanding, you know, they get, they get to experience way more than the picky person does.
And maybe they don't like everything that they eat. I think this is a really great illustration. The more I think about it, they might not like it, everything they eat, but they get to experience a lot more things that they do like. Because they went out, they stepped, uh, beyond their fear in order to try it.
And I think that's the same about people. I think we could be afraid of people because we don't understand them. We don't understand where they're coming from. We don't know who they are. Or like, sometimes it's even like oh man they're going to hurt me or something like that. We miss out on so much, so much because we don't get to know them.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:34:56] Yeah. Yeah. No. And I mean, Cal talked about that of like, um, I'm blanking on what, what episode number he brought it up on, but, uh, just talking about like even his own mother and, uh, how at the end of kind of her life, like the legacy of people that she had come in contact with was a very, very small zero to none.
And I think about our, our walk as Christians and what Cal has said is like, hey, push outside of your echo chamber. Um, and I, I love the episode where we talked about how to listen, uh, because I think that is, yeah. Probably the, the number one way, um, to start pushing beyond the lines is, uh, you, you know, you don't come to love someone immediately maybe, or come to like them even immediately, but getting to listen to someone that can kind of start that bridge and move down the process.
And so something that has said that stuck out to me is just asking the questions of like, what do you mean by that? Uh, and kind of just trying to get further clarifying answers. Because I really think, uh, when it comes to just the day and age we live, like, uh, people, um, are keeping themselves and don't always necessarily want to, um, be involved with everyone.
But if you just ask simple questions, uh, that makes you an interesting person, uh, because you are just trying to get to know them. And then at the same time, uh, going back to even that Samaritan woman, it's at the end of the count conversation, they might be like, hey, that. That person made me feel something, uh, that that person makes me feel important.
And, uh, I just think that's a great way for us as followers of Christ to start going and pushing beyond those lines.
Jon Miller: [00:36:39] Yeah. I think it's valuing people, you know, for being people created in the image of God and, and respecting them because they have the intrinsic, like this dignity that's already been given to them by their Creator.
And often is pushed down by the world, depending on what people group you're a part of. Um, and I think that's what contempt does. And we talked about contempt. Um, it's disgust. Uh, where we're like, we're already disgusted with a person because they believe this they're from this country. They're a part of this culture.
They're different than us. They say it's so tragic and I've done it in my own life where we're like, you don't deserve to exist. You don't, you should be eradicated like a pest, like, uh, and it's thoughts like that. That start have started massive wars, um, have that have caused genocides. It's thoughts where we like you
don't, you're you as a person or a people group don't deserve to exist because I'm disgusted with you. You're a bug and it, we break our minds, I think break. Cause I think we are designed to value human life. I think we do. We are. But if we can just see that person across from us as not a person anymore, you know, I remember all the war movies I watched.
They always had these derogatory, derogatory terms towards other group of people that they're fighting. I think of, uh, like when they're calling the Japanese, the Japs, like we have to kill the Japs. Like, was that at World War 2, I think. Um, it's, it's creating these images and like, they are not human anymore.
It's okay to kill them. It's okay. Yeah. God didn't intend it to be like, he wants us to value every human life. He does. I believe that with all my heart. It's when we break that in our minds where we're like, you're not a human, that you're, I am disgusted with you. I have contempt for you. You don't, you're not good.
You're not good anymore. You don't deserve my respect. That's where dangerous things start happening.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:38:41] Totally. And I think that that kind of moves us even just some of the, the content of episode two, um, you know, Cal had said, you know, If you don't aim for something other than easy, you're always going to land on easy.
And I think about just what you were talking about of, uh, holding people in contempt, or just being disgusted with someone, like that's an easy thing to do, right. You know, somebody cuts you off in traffic.
Jon Miller: [00:39:04] Oh yeah.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:39:05] It's so easy for you to be like, all right. Like. I hate you like, yeah. What, what is your issue?
And, and you could dwell on that all day, all night.
Jon Miller: [00:39:13] Totally.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:39:14] Um, and that's the easy thing to do, but what Cal said in episode two is that Jesus never landed on the easy thing to do and that he had to put effort into it. We have to put effort into it. And I just think too, uh, you know, going down this path of, uh, of, if we, as a church we're to live out the values of what Christ actually wants us to do, versus what society is telling us to do.
And, you know, society tells you, you get cut off in traffic all over, go faster than that person, flip them off, keep, keep going on with your day. But that's not necessarily what Christ is asking us to do. Not that there's any passages about driving in the Bible, um.
Jon Miller: [00:39:52] Thou shall use thy turn signal.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:39:55] Blinker.
No, I wish that was something, but I digress. Um, but yeah, I really think our world would be radically different if we all took on that mindset of, yeah. We're not going to make a difference as Christ followers, unless we're willing to be different, right?
Jon Miller: [00:40:10] Man, we could talk for hours. Uh, I have to mention this.
I have to, I'm sorry, but oh, I visited. I was in India for four months and I had the, uh, the. The experience of going to Varanasi, I'm going to, I'm going to miss mispronounce, a lot of things here. Okay. Uh, Varanasi, it's the origin place of Buddhism. It's the, it's the holy city. And, um, we, and besides that, uh, the a holy river runs beside the city.
It's called the Gangus River. And I, again, I'm probably mispronouncing these really terribly and we had the opportunity to, and this was not like a, a big metropolitan city. It was kind of run down. And like, I remember specifically like, like the power lines sparking, like that just sparks. And nobody knew nobody cared.
Like it was just like sparks were flying off from above. A deer while we walked by the stream. And I was like, Oh boy. And so, but we got to the river and uh, some Buddhist priests. We're doing like this ritual with fire and they're dancing with it. There's four of them or five of them. I can't remember on like these pedestals by the river, which is a holy river where people would wash themselves.
Okay. They were they're worshiping. And if there's, this is really cool, like fire dance kind of ritual. I was like, I know that they don't believe in God, their Creator. Um, but I wish they did, but something I, I was like, this is kind of beautiful. You can see the image of God, in the fact that they're there, they've created this ritual and that it's beautiful.
And that it's kind of cool. Like, I wish that they were worshiping my God, that that showed them that they don't have to do things like this in order to be loved in order to be accepted in order to have value. And, and that they don't have to be a part of that, but that I, I could tell that the image of God was still on them, even though they weren't following him.
And, and, and kind of said something along those lines to the group and they were kind of shocked. So I was like, ooh, um, I hope I didn't say something wrong there, or I'm saying something wrong now, but I'm not saying that I'm a Buddhist or that I believe in Buddhism as the right way. Um, however, I do see beauty in
some of the rituals that they did. And I feel like God, um, gave them that ability. And it's something that is it's dignified in and is cool. It's not something that I don't know. You, I'm trying to say.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:42:28] Yeah, no, I get what you're saying. And you know, what it makes me think about is, you know, talking about that image of God, the imago dei. And regardless of, of what someone, um, like in your circumstance believes.
We as Christians, we're called to recognize them as a human being. Right. Um, and that they are, they too are made in God's image. And so I think that's just a good reminder for us, um, is to love because at the same time they might not be on the same path as us, but they're one of God's children's too right.
Uh, God's children. Well, and, uh, you know, it doesn't mean we always like everyone because sometimes it takes time to get to like someone, um, But, but we still love them. Like I even think about, uh, uh, back when I was in Cupertino, uh, there was a student I met and at first I was like, dude, you are driving me crazy.
Like you're bouncing off the walls. And it wasn't until I got to know this student got to ask them questions that I began to like them and begin to love them. And, uh, and then it's like, Hey, you know, you might be crazy sometimes, but that's okay. But I still love you because you're made in the image of God, just as much as I am.
So, um, Yeah. And I think that, that, that just kind of leads even too of like, how do we listen to people who are different to us are different than us. And, uh, I love what Cal has said is like saying something to someone, you know, your life matters. And I just want to honor you by listening. Listening to is the number one way that I can respect you right now that I can honor you.
Um, and so, yeah, I don't know if you had any thoughts about just kind of that whole episode about listening to to one another, um, episode three, I believe is what it was, but yeah, I don't know that to me. I think that I've said it before, you know, that's, I think the first step into really going beyond the lines is listening to people.
Jon Miller: [00:44:26] Yeah. And
understanding if you think of like just India, um, It's like 3% Christian, but it's literally been reached. Like it had been, uh, people have been trying to reach it since, uh, literally Jesus like went back saying like, I, I visited St Timothy's mounds where they say like the disciple Timothy.
Thomas, I'm sorry. The disciple Thomas, uh, died was martyred there. Um, and there's like a Catholic, uh, shrine there. And, uh, what's interesting is that the country is still only 3% Christian. I think part of that is that a lot of Western ministries have missionaries who have gone there. Didn't take time to listen to the people and understand what
their values and what their culture meant to them. They would say things like, Hey, if you become a Jesus follower, you have to, you have to completely separate yourself from Hinduism. And what that meant is because to be a Hindu is to be basically an Indian it's it's to be in your family. So you had to separate from your entire community, which is not a big deal, I guess, maybe to a westerner who w where we aren't as community focused, but to them, that's everything.
And so you basically say, I have to. You know, and Jesus does say like, you have to give up your life for him, but like, it was like unbearable. And then nobody, if they did break off, they had no contact with the people in their families to tell them about Jesus, now. Like it's a rough. And I think, and what surprised me a lot while I was there is that the churches that were there, they worshiped with guitars and pianos.
And I was like, why? Like you have your own cultural instruments, but the Western ministries that came there. Uh, I said, no, no, no, those aren't, those aren't good. Guitar and piano or of the, of the Lord. And it's like, how, how are these of the Lord any more than like a sitar or traditional drums or anything like that.
And, but I, then I was part of like churches where they, they would all sing. I loved it and just play a drum. Everybody would clap their own beat. And, um, that was awesome. It felt more traditional, but they would, it, what I'm trying to say is. We need to listen a lot more before we try to like, sh we need to listen a lot more to people's values, where they're coming from to understand how we can show them how Jesus fits, how Jesus can love them in the midst of that in the, in, in everything they've gone through how Jesus, how he fits into that and how he's always been with them, how he loves them and wants to be a part of their life.
Does that make sense?
Clayton Eddleman: [00:46:56] Yeah. No, that does make sense. And it's like what Cal mentioned, you know, someone's story is going to be the truest truth that they know. And so, you know, for someone who is born in India, their story is based on their circumstance. Somebody who's born in the States is going to have a different story than someone born in Europe.
You know, the list goes on and on, but empathy is really just saying. Hey, I'm going to put myself in your shoes. I know my perspective may be way different because my upbringing was different than yours, but I want to listen to you and hear what you have to say. And I think about the book. Uh, this is one of my favorite books is How to Kill a Mockingbird. And, uh, Atticus Finch,
the lawyer in that story, uh, has this quote or this verbiage where it's like, hey, you can't judge someone or know their story until you've walked, not a mile in their shoes, but a mile in their skin. No, and I think that's way different than the shoes, obviously, because it's a try and try and put yourself in that person's body and understand their story.
And that's what we're trying to do as followers of Christ, when we talk about, hey, how do we, how do we go beyond the lines of listening is saying, let me just pretend I'm you for a second. Um, cause that's the empathetic way versus the apathetic way of just saying, Oh, okay. Yeah. Like I get that, but. We're still going to do it my way.
We're going to do guitars and piano, you know, for, for worship or something like that. Um, Yeah. That's.
Jon Miller: [00:48:23] Yeah. And it's tricky because you'll never get there. You'll never get to the point where you know exactly what it's like to be them.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:48:29] Right.
Jon Miller: [00:48:29] I mean, you can live, like if you grew up in the United States and they say like, you're now, like you can then spend 10 years in the United States and then live the rest of your life in India, but you'll never fully know what it's like to be a Hindu.
You might get really close depending on how long you're there. Are in any other country or any other culture, you might get close to understanding what their culture is like fully, but you'll never fully get there because your heart began, your, your culture began with a different one. And so it's like living in this both and situation where you never fully understand what it's like to be that, but it all starts with listening.
And, and sitting down and like, I want to understand, I want to understand what's going on here. I want to know, I want to try my best to, to feel what you feel and feel what you feel from your perspective, not feel what I feel from your story, but feel what you feel. I think once you're able to do that, um, you're getting close and you will never fully get there, but it's the effort that really counts.
I think when people can sense that you're trying, you're doing your best to feel what they feel. I think that that matters, it really matters. And then you get invited into those sacred spaces like Cal was talking about.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:49:44] Yeah, because it's in those sacred spaces where that's where I think the real life happens is people being honest and vulnerable with one another and sharing, um, their deepest hurts or stuff that they've gone through.
And then that's where you get to say or not say, but just, just live out, uh, a life like Christ where it's, hey, I'm going to be here for you. I'm going to support you. I'm going to love you. Um, yeah, so all of this to say, just, I don't think that there's a more applicable time. It's not like we, uh, we, we had a, an orb and we saw into the future of what's going to happen and, uh, in 2020 and 2021.
Uh, but I, I just don't think that there is a better time where the content and the topics of, uh, loving beyond and going beyond the lines could be more applicable than right now. Right. Um, but yeah, we could, we could go on for forever about this.
Jon Miller: [00:50:40] And we already have.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:50:40] We already have, yeah.
Jon Miller: [00:50:41] Beat the record.
Everybody knew when they clicked on this episode that we are, this is a longer episode than others. I hope you enjoyed it. Um, we need to stop.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:50:49] That sounds good.
Jon Miller: [00:50:51] But
we could talk forever. This is something we're really passionate about. We're learning about it too. I. I do not feel like I am anywhere near Cal's level, anywhere near.
And so I am very, very honored to be a part of this podcast where I get to learn from people who are. On a different level of loving beyond than I am, and I can't wait to learn from them. Um, so thank you so much for joining us today. For the Beyond The Lines podcast, we record here at Central Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona.
Our church is pursuing the mantra of love beyond. You've heard that a lot during this podcast, which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace. If you're interested at all, uh, learning more about our church, check us out at centralaz.com. We have online services as well as a bunch of different locations in the Phoenix Metro area.
If you're local. We will see you at next episode of Beyond The Lines until then start loving beyond your lines.
Clayton Eddleman: [00:51:44] See ya
Jon Miller: [00:51:44] Bye.