Beyond The Lines

How To Talk About Race And Ethnicity | DJ Heyward | Beyond The Lines Ep. 5

April 21, 2021 Central Christian Church of Arizona Season 1 Episode 5
Beyond The Lines
How To Talk About Race And Ethnicity | DJ Heyward | Beyond The Lines Ep. 5
Show Notes Transcript

How should we approach conversations about race? There are a few loud voices out there who don't want us to learn about race. Racism is real and we need learn how to talk about this important topic. Race is an important topic to learn about. 

Join us on this episode of Beyond The Lines where we talk with special guest DJ Heyward, a black pastor in a predominately white church. We will discuss the lessons he's learned about how to talk about race and ethnicity.

How to Talk About Race: Four Lessons I learned: https://www.centralaz.com/blog/how-to-talk-about-race-four-lessons-i-learned

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

Jon Miller: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. My name is Jon Miller. I'm one of the co-hosts for this podcast. This is Clayton Eddelman. 

Hello. 

And I don't have my script before me. So this is just a raw intro into what we do and what we do here is we listen to people's stories, because we believe that everybody has an important story to share.

Even if we disagree with them, it doesn't matter to us. We want to listen no matter what. And today we have on the podcast, somebody we work with at Central Christian Church, this is DJ Heyward. He's an incredible guy. He's the Associate Campus Pastor at Glendale. Welcome DJ. I'm glad you're here.

Thank you guys, I'm 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:35] excited to be here. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:36] Yeah, we should probably preface it, he's a Cowboys fan.

 I am, I am. 

We got to just keep that in mind. He's proud. 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:43] It's God's team. 

God's 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:44] team! 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:45] It's always 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:45] got the big stadium. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:47] I mean, I'm not a sports person, but doesn't everybody claim their team is God's team.

DJ Heyward: [00:00:51] But you know, that's false teaching, so.

Jon Miller: [00:00:54] But yours is fine.

Okay. Yeah. Oh man. Well recently. DJ, you wrote a blog for our Central Blog, centralaz.com/blog. A little plug for you. And you wrote it. And the title of it was How to Talk About Race Four Lessons I Learned. And I think we're just going to be honest here, Central right now, as it stands is a predominantly, our staff is predominantly white and you're a person of color on our staff.

And you're incredible. And so what are some things, I guess we just want to talk about what you've learned working on the staff and what you've learned just in this incredible climate of the last few years of a lot of change, a lot discussions happening and a lot of things, tragedies, and all that. What have you learned?

And we want to hear your perspective on all that. 

DJ Heyward: [00:01:42] Yeah. First I want to kind of address the title of the blog kind of ends with some, like something that I learned and I was. As I was thinking about writing this blog it was, it's kind of like, hey, like  what are my thoughts and what are the things I want people to listen to?

But I was, as I was writing, I was thinking, Hey, here's some things that I learned that was something that was modeled to me that really that challenged me, that really impacted me. That was really meaningful to me. And even though like the conversation was about my perspective, I was able to learn something from the person that was asking the question.

And the person that I say, I say their name is Lisa. In the, in the blog post and how she was really um, uh, she had a lot of questions about what was going on. We're going back to the time in the summer with George Floyd and Arbery and all of the stuff that was going on. And her for the first time, really wrestling with some of these things that she was seeing.

And her looking at me in my family as people that she cares about, I was like, hey, are these things that you guys are experiencing? And hey, do you like help me in all my ignorance in everything that I am. And I'm just going to pose some really hard questions for you and some things that are really hard, hard for me to bring up.

And I, and I wanna, I want to share them with you. And so that was like, wow, that was a really eye opening for me to see like, wow, this person is coming to me humbly. And though. If you would just to take the transcript of our conversations and just read them, you'd be like, oh wow. Like some of those things are really offensive, but how she approached them was really, was really well done.

And I think is something that we can all learn from no matter if you're white, black, or whatever, whatever, whoever you think the other is to you. Some of those things can be used. And in, in, in life, just in life in general, like, what we're trying to do here is loving beyond and hearing people's stories.

And I'm trying to, remove like our selfishness so we could just understand people, empathize with people, walk in their shoes, but also love them where they are. And, and that's, and that's what we're called, we're called to do. If we, you know, for us who are  Jesus followers, we want to act like him.

And he always loved people exactly where they are. And that's the thing that we're challenged to do. So that's what I want to address first with the with the kind of title of why kind of why I went something that I've learned. Even though someone was trying to learn something from me. Because I was able to learn something from them, from them as well.

So your original question was what is it like kind of being a black pastor on pretty much a predominantly white staff. And that's how I kind of introed you know, my, my blog when I was first writing about being this black pastor. And, and during that time going back in time, you know, almost a year ago now.

Jon Miller: [00:04:33] Wow. 

DJ Heyward: [00:04:33] It was, it was, it was, it was a really heavy season for me. It was like that week that George Floyd died, that he was murdered. It was the most emotionally taxing week that that I have had on, on staff and probably almost my whole life. Obviously yeah, of things that happened were really hard, but that week was just really hard because I think for the first time, a lot of my peers

on this staff that we have here, for the first time are starting to wrestling with the same things that I mentioned Lisa mentioned in the, in the blog, they were starting to do that. And so, because I'm on this staff and because I'm one of the only people of color, there's just a few of us on this staff. 

Jon Miller: [00:05:17] Right 

DJ Heyward: [00:05:18] At the time was was a pretty large staff.

And I was getting a lot of people's questions and not only from here, but from outside the church as well from friends and family and everything like that. And so it was, it was just, it was almost every night. I was having a conversation for almost an hour plus after work and all that kind of stuff.

Just talking with people about my my experience and what has that been like? And so it was really emotionally draining, but it was such a blessing, that I'm glad that people felt comfortable enough with me to ask those questions. Because I think it can be really hard when you're entering in a space that you don't understand.

Um, you don't want to say the wrong thing and offend someone. But I think it's all about your approach. You can, you can, you can be ignorant and approach it in a way where you are in a posture to learn. Right. And so when we're able to do that, we're like you, you start to take down barriers. And I think a lot of times we want to uh, we, we want to shy away or, or then because we don't want to deal with it.

We then go into an echo chamber of what, what we already believe, and that makes us comfortable. And to do what Lisa did in my blog for me was incredibly uncomfortable. But at the same time it was so, so fruitful and that, and that was, was, was amazing. So.

Jon Miller: [00:06:42] It reminds me of you you one time spoke for our staff on something of the same subject line.

And you talked a lot about curiosity and just genuine curiosity. Is that kinda, what you're talking about here is like just genuine curiosity in your ignorance is important to have when you're approaching these subjects. 

DJ Heyward: [00:07:01] Yeah. Yeah. I think curiosity is, is so important and just in life in general, like to, to have a spirit of curiosity is how we learn.

I was actually having this conversation with my five-year-old a few days ago. And I was just telling him, hey man, you always ask questions. Like you, and he's like, dad, why, why should I ask questions? It's like, because that's how you learn. Like the only way we learn about things is when we are willing to ask questions. And somewhere in our childhood we either get to the point where we think we know everything, or we start to think our questions are stupid, or we don't want to ask them

any more. And so therefore we start to fill ourselves with this things that, that we know, and we stick to the things that, that we know. And that is so important when we are having discussions about loving people that are on the other side of the line that we've drawn. We have to be curious about the other side.

And I think I said in that in this whole idea of loving beyond is how can we love beyond if we are afraid of what's beyond? Like we can't like, we can't, you, you can't love someone that that is a far away from you. If you are not willing to go step towards them and say, Hey, I'm coming to you open handed.

And, and I, and I want to know. Because man, God has created this earth and his people, all people in diversity. And this is such a, a big mystery that, that we're living in this world that we live in is God created in, in mystery. And so when we stop asking questions where we're, we're not entering in the mystery anymore, we're just, we just,

we just want to know the ending. And it's sometimes easier to do that because then our life becomes predictable and it becomes safe and it becomes easy. We want everything to be easy. Right. And so it's hard for us to want to kind of play in the mystery or discover things because when we discover things, most likely we're uncomfortable. From a physical standpoint standpoint, like spiritual standpoint and emotional standpoint, it can be really uncomfortable to be, to be curious and to want to discover other things about people.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:13] Yeah, that's so good. I mean, even just, I imagine your conversation with who in your blog, you talk about Lisa that she was just saying, hey, you know, I'm coming kind of, open-handed just want to seek to understand, and that's gotta be an uncomfortable position to put yourself in. And so I think your relationship was unique, right?

Because this is family. And so how, how would you encourage us who maybe don't have family members who are of opposite or different color, but even if we just have friends, coworkers, peers, like how do we start to say, hey, how do I get involved in uncomfortable conversation? 

DJ Heyward: [00:09:47] Yeah. And I, I mentioned this as I was writing as well, is that the and you're exactly right, the context of the conversation was happening in was  relationship. And it has to be in that context where you're able to, able to have these conversations, right? Have these conversations to understand this story where you can start or have a relationship with someone.

And if you don't have a relationship with someone that is different than you whether that be by your skin color or by what you believe, there's no one that you can go to that you respect and say, hey, like here's some of the things that I'm struggling with. With this subject that has to do with your experience.

And it, it, it, it it's, you really have to go out and do that. And so for a lot of the people, when I'm blessed to be in this position myself and Jon Moton are one of our campus pastors as well. We're in this position where people looked at us and say, hey, you are someone that I trust to have this conversation conversation with.

And this is, and this is like a, both, and. To like, if you, if I'm coming to you and want to know something um, about you, like you have to then respond in a way that is. That is uplifting. That is that we're willing, that you're willing to go in that conversation. And it's so easy to say, hey, I want people to understand my story, but then when people ask hard questions about my story, I smacked them over the head with, with my story.

And that's not, that's not healthy either. It's not healthy to do that either. So to be able to have a relational conversation with someone about your context and everything that you've been going through is, is really important. So for someone that you're asking if you want to go looking for someone, I think it just comes with how you approach it and say, hey, like, these are, these are some of the things that I've been dealing with.

And so let's, let's talk about those things. And I wanna, I want to enter into a conversation with you and hear your perspective on the matter. 

Jon Miller: [00:11:53] I loved it that it all kind of revolves like you sit around this mystery like that God purposely put mystery in the universe. And part of that is in the fact that he made different people.

And when we look different, we speak different. We have different cultures and all this really beauty there's a lot of beauty in it. I mean, we've kind of, because of what you said, like we fear to walk beyond those lines of like differences. We'd rather flock together. Cause we're the birds of the, or whatever, you know?

So it's like, I think that's how it goes. 

DJ Heyward: [00:12:20] Yeah something like that. 

Jon Miller: [00:12:21] But then 

we're like, Oh no, I don't want mystery. I want sure things. But then I think we were just talking about before the podcast about the brackets and then about March madness and about basketball. And I'm not a sports person, but there's a mystery and when you fill out a  bracket, you might be like, Oh, I'm pretty sure my team's going to win or this team's going to win.

Or my team's going to suck. I'm pretty sure about that. But you know, first, you know, for sure that you're probably not right, right? Right. There's a mystery. And then that's why you watch it. You don't watch a basketball game cause you know, they're going to win. You want to know what's going to be that the end, because it's a mystery and there's, you know, it's being played on, you know, again, I'm not a sports person, but I think am I right?

That some of the most boring sport sports games, most boring games you can watch are the ones you already know the answer it's easily seen at the beginning. You're like, Oh, They're definitely going to win. This is going to be really boring game. 

Yeah. It's, 

DJ Heyward: [00:13:11] it's why you don't want people to tell you the end of the movie.

Yeah. You want to enjoy the journey. And even though when we go see, this is kind of off topic, but go see like the Avengers or superhero movies, you know, the super hero is going to come out on top, but you want to enjoy the journey of how the superhero and their character arc and all the things that they have to overcome and all the other things that have to

do with, with that person's story, you want to see that story and see it to the end, even though you kind of know what's going to happen, like you're, you know, just that they're probably, they're probably going to win. And so I think that's, I think that's the same thing that has to do with with each other.

Like it's the same concept. And sometimes we, we, we just want to. We want to know the person's story and some and what we do, we start to assume something about people. We generalize about people, or we, you know, we, we put people in this box and say, all the people who think like this, act like this, do this.

And that's not part of the mystery. That's not part of the, that's not part of it. 

Jon Miller: [00:14:22] Why can't we do that? Like, why can't we make that trans, like, everybody loved that, like, I mean, I won't speak for everybody, but I feel like most people will loved watching Endgame, even though in that circumstance they lost.

Right. Very, Oh, sorry. Spoilers. I apologize. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:14:36] Talking about Infinity War. That's what you're talking about. 

DJ Heyward: [00:14:38] Yeah. 

Jon Miller: [00:14:39] Oh, you're right. Yeah. No spoilers. If you haven't seen it by now, it's your own fault. Yeah, it's on Disney Plus. Yeah. Yeah. But like we like to be in the mystery of that, but why can't we live in the mystery of like, not like, like, oh, I I've already pegged you.

I already know who you are without even meeting you or getting to know you. I already know exactly where you are. Why do we do that with people and not with like movies and stuff? You know what I'm saying? 

DJ Heyward: [00:15:10] Yeah. I think that's a good question because I think people are scary. Yeah, I think we're, we're unpredictable, unpredictable, and we're complicated.

And so the more that we can put people in a specific type of box, the easier mentally that we can deal with with what it is. And even if what we put the box, we put people in, scare us, but at least we know they scare us. I think that is you know, when we look at the polarization of our world, our politics today, it's all about

who can draw the most fear. And the way you draw the most fears that you put, people that are different than you that think different you in a box. And then you paint that box as scary. And then that's how, and the but you at least, you know, for us, we, we we understand that and that's the whole danger danger thing about You know, during the whole time I was having some conversations with people on social media about different things. And you can call them debates.

I don't really argue with anyone, but some of them were, were debates on different things, but I just refuse to argue with, or debate with someone that I didn't know their story, or know a little bit about their context. Because in social media and Facebook and all that kind of stuff or Instagram, whatever you want to call it, you just see a very small sliver of someone's life.

And someone's life is completely complex and messy and different and hard and they've experienced loss and they have been through some of the same things you've been through. But when I argue with someone or if I choose to argue with someone on Facebook on this little piece, this little sliver on their life, but then I use that sliver to paint them as this person.

It's, it's, it's dangerous, it's unhealthy, but, but to, to your point, it helps me cope with what this person is saying, because then I can point I can, I can create their narrative for them. And so, as I was having some of these different conversations on Facebook, I always made sure if someone and most of these people were responding to me and I'm responding back, but I,

made sure I chose to respond to people who I know about their context, because, when I do, I'm able to say, hey, like we had disagree disagree on this point, but man, I, I cried at you when your grand cried with you when your grandfather died. And I was there for you, and I saw your, your human self, all this stuff online and all of the stuff that, that we see today,

a lot of it is caricatures and it's fabricated. And so it's so easy for us to get caught, caught into those because this is our brain naturally does this, right? We, we, we want to, our brain is designed to help us be efficient. So we efficiently, we translate that into humans, right? We put them in boxes so we can efficiently and quickly make snap judgements on people and kind of move on, move on with our day and make sure that.

That we're protected, we're protecting ourselves and we're being safe. And really you know, if you follow Jesus, sometimes safety and comfortability is directly opposed to the gospel that he's called us to. And and it's, and it's something that we have to intentionally move past, like this, this want to be, create a world that looks like what I want it to look like.

Like we want to be the kings of this world. We want to shape this world into how we think it should be. And sometimes what we do is forget that the people who were putting over in that box, those people are made in the image of God. And when we do that, we strip them of some of those things that do it. Because it's so easy. It's so easy to do that.

So easy to say, Oh, God likes me. And he went, I think Cal spoke about this this weekend. Like, yeah. Like he, like, he agrees with me. So therefore he agrees with me, what you think is of, something else. The the devil or something like that. Right, right. It's almost like uh, well Water Boy's mom, you know, that foot foosballs up the devil, you know, her, her famous quotes in that movie everything is, is is of the  devil.

An, it's so easy for us to convince ourselves that our way, way of thinking is the right way and the only way. And you know, if you we're married and we know, that's not the case. Frequently, our way of thinking is the wrong way of thinking. So. But it, it gets, it gets really hard when people start to look at what the other side is doing and they're saying, Oh my gosh, that other side is going to infringe on my safety.

And then we get to demonize people and dehumanize people. And that is where us as believers, we have to stand against that. We have to stand against dehumanizing people. We have to stand against making people, um, not seeing people the way that God sees people. Even people who are, who really man, we just, I mean, there's nothing about that person that, that I agree with, but God looks at this person and says, I love

him or her. I love him or her. I adore them and I want what's what's what's best for them. And so, so often we can get caught up in playing, I mean a lot of ways you can kind of play God, so.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:20:36] Yeah, no, I mean, Cal talked about that, you know, the righteous, righteous people don't feel like they need to change their mind or anything.

That's totally true. What was it like this past summer? Cause I know you and Dean, who's your boss, Glendale Campus Pastor. You guys got to go together to some of these uh, prayer events and like worship stuff and downtown Phoenix. What was that like? Just getting to do that part of life together. And almost just ministry in a sense of, of, hey, we're we're coming alongside each other arm and arm.

DJ Heyward: [00:21:07] Yeah. I mean, that was him, but it was, it was just really cool. I mean For Dean and I have many deep conversations about a lot of issues. And I think it's just, it's really important for me to have someone who's who's older. And, but also man, this idea of being curious. Dean is one of the most curious people that I, that I know in him just asking questions and just being completely open with where he, his and understanding his own biases and understanding what, what he's well, he doesn't see, and he allows me to point some of those things out. And he also takes it upon himself to go looking for those, for those things as well.

So doing those things with him and some of the other people on staff who are at some of  those thing, uh, you know, with us, you know, we did the pair of vigil thing in in Gilbert at our Gilbert Gilbert campus. And just seeing our staff like really say, hey, like, like we, like, we not only like see you, but we're standing with you. Was, was really powerful.

I mean, it really was, it was a really cool thing to say, wow, like my peer see me. And though they don't look like me though they don't have this, the same experience as me. And there's just different people. And you know, you don't have the same experiences as Jonathan or we're just different, but when you, and supporting you in that way, it just, it feels, it feels good.

It feels good to, to be supportive. And the conversations that Dean and I have had over the, over the years, I mean, I've known Dean for, for really, really long time has been, has been really good. Back to the point of, we have to find people that we can have those conversations. If, if, if every conversation was just uh, you know, Dean just agreeing with me or not even, cause we agree on a lot of things, but just like, hey, like let's go deeper here.

Let's let's figure out why let's go. Let's let me pose a challenging question to you. Like we got to have people like that in it, and in our circle. Someone that, that you truly respect and that you, that you can just have a deeper conversation with. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:15] Yeah, well, and that just doesn't happen overnight.

I mean, you and Dean, like you said, that's a testament to your relationship. And you know, even not, it's just having this conversation here, it's a testament to the fact that, you know, we're coworkers, we're peers, we're friends and these conversations can't happen just on a whim. I mean, it takes some effort from both sides to see that.

So yeah. It's cool to see that and encouraging at the same time. 

DJ Heyward: [00:23:39] Yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:40] Want to transition a little, just I know you've got kids. 

DJ Heyward: [00:23:44] Yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:44] And what are their ages again? 

DJ Heyward: [00:23:46] A five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a one-year-old. She's about to be two in May. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:50] Okay. So you got some, some fun times ahead of you.

DJ Heyward: [00:23:54] Oh yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:55] How, like, how do you as just a father, how do you try and walk through?

You know, experiences or situations like you've outlined in your blog and just model that for your kids. 

DJ Heyward: [00:24:09] Yeah. It's actually just, it's kind of crazy as a parent. You don't really you don't really, as a parent, it's just, it's kinda hard cause you just want your kids to stay innocent. Yeah. You know, I think all parents want our kids to like, oh, like they're just little and they're innocent.

But, but, so I tell you a story. So I'm last year my son was playing, playing t-ball and one of the kids it was like at the beginning of practice and one of the kids said, hey, I want to, I want, I don't want to play catch with him. I want to play catch with someone with lighter skin. Wow. And fortunately my son didn't hear that, but I, I did.

And so on mind you, this is t-ball so this is three, four, and five and five-year-olds. And so I was. For fortune and a God, just like the Holy Spirit, like was definitely with me. And, and I've worked with kids like pretty much my whole life. And so understanding, Hey, kids sometimes just say some crazy stuff.

And so I, I had an opportunity to pull his dad to the side while the kids were practicing and stuff like that, and just had a conversation with like, hey, hey man, this is a, hey, this is what your son said. Is it really, probably a time for you to have a dad moment with him, just to talk about what he said, my son didn't hear it.

I'm I'm, I'm not, I'm not upset, upset at all. But just here here's, here's something for you and obviously he was apologetic and, and all that kind of stuff, but uh, for, and also, fortunately my wife didn't hear it. Hear, hear, what, what, what he, what he says. So I got to talk to her about it afterwards, and obviously as a mama bear would, would get super, super upset, but, you know as, as I would just having that conversation with her, and then I got to have another conversation with the dad and I just seen him to t-ball game.

And he was like, hey, like, He's his, mom's a person of color. Like, I don't know where, where you said that to where he got that from was like, man, I wonder if that's something that's been said to him you know, where he, well, he's been going through, but if I would have blown up at him or like, hey, like you're treating

like your teacher's son, this like, like for one that would have severed the relationship that we could have had had, you know, right after that COVID happened. So didn't see him again. But but. You know, that would have severed the relationship. And then it wouldn't have been a good a model for my family of how, how are we going to handle, handle these types of things?

And my son still, till this day, doesn't know that happened. But I think it was a good eye opener for for me and my wife to have conversations of, okay, how are we going to handle these types of teas, these types of conversations. So like just  being aware of when we need to have these conversations and obviously making sure that they understand their, their culture.

My, my kids are half, half black and half white. So they, they, they recognize, I mean, my five-year-old recognized that he, that me and him have different skin tones and stuff like that. But it's, it's an idea that, hey, like, we're going to appreciate where we're going to appreciate all, all people. And so I can't expect people to appreciate us if I'm not going to teach him to appreciate all people as well.

And so it kind of start to not modeling like, hey, we're going to be the models of how we want people to treat us. And when we have, those times where people would don't treat us the right way we're going to figure out how to, how to handle situation. And hopefully, hopefully I'm not saying that we're going to do this every time, perfectly.

But my hope is that we handles things with love and with care and with honesty and integrity. And that's what I want to model for my kids is how to handle situations with honesty and integrity and being able to stand up for yourself while, while at the same time loving people. And having grace for people.

I think that is the standard that we've been set before when it comes to following Jesus. It's not it it's, it's not, it's not an easy thing. It's, it's a hard thing. It's a serious thing. But some of the cool things that can happen out of the way that Jesus designed, designed them, the God designed them are way more fruitful and way more impactful than the gut reactions in the selfish reaction.

Reactions that we can have. And in some of those situations, so that as, as a dad is something I want to make, make sure that my kids understand is that yeah, diversity is important. Diversity is good. Diversity is, is cool. It's the mystery in inside of life that there'll be, get to discover people and where, and where they're from, from people that look like you.

Or people that look like you, but if they're from a different land, in a different context, in a different culture, like we want to know about, know about those things, because they're fun. Like life is, is so much more full when we're able to experience other, other, other people in their ways. I'm just thinking about this map and all the different, different types of.

You know people that, that, that are out there. My mom is from Trinidad and Tobago. You can see it on that map cause it's too small, but, but it's not represented on there. But, um, but my mom's from Trinidad and Tobago and like learning that culture growing up has been it's it's, it's a part of me. It's a part of who, who I am is a part of who my kids are in it's and it's a fun thing.

It's not like it, it's not bad. It's not bad to be different. It's not bad to Um, uh, not understand things it's only bad when you want to push things away and create yourself a little box that you're going to hide. Hide in. 

Jon Miller: [00:30:01] Yeah, and something I've really appreciated just in this conversation with you, DJ is all the ways, the, how you've just shown great humility yourself, the great ability to listen.

And like, I I'm just, again, I'm going through all these different things you've said, like, when you're talking to somebody on social media, you don't talk to people who are really, well engage in arguments or debates with people you don't know their lives or have some kind of connection with, because you know, that, that they're.

Persona on social media in that moment, in that post is not the complete person. Yeah. I mean, every person has this gigantic background. And I think we forget that all the time. Like we all have these things, these hurts in our lives. These, um, somebody has hurt us. Somebody has done this to us. Some person has been really great to us from this people group.

And and so like that people groups good, but this, somebody from this people group has hurt me or, or my grandparents told me about the, you know, and there's so much history. And sometimes we don't even recognize that about ourselves, let alone another person. And what I've really appreciate about listening to you, is that you just show the humility and ability to listen and recognize that every person has that story.

Every person has that, that history that's on them and it is affecting how they see other people. 

DJ Heyward: [00:31:21] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We all, we all come from perspective. We all have a perspective and it's different. So even having this conversation about what was it like being a black pastor in a white congregation?

Or what is it like in my context, I mean, like, It's just my perspective. Someone else can have a very different perspective on the events that happened this summer. And that's okay. That is okay. Like I don't, I don't speak for all black people. I don't speak for, I mean, the only people I can speak for is for me and my family. And everybody else

has there that same responsibility, like you just speak for yourself and your family and, and understanding that, hey, my perspective is my perspective and yeah. Like though I may understand something about the larger perspective that you may not understand. At the end of the day, the way I interpret those things can be a little bit nuanced and different than someone else

if you ask the same questions. And being able to have those stories and, you know, have those conversations with people is, is, is really important to get some of that, that history stuff that you talk about and the culture of that, that you talk about, like, Yeah, like you're going to have to talk, talk to someone about those things.

And so we all have to be willing to share and be open with people. I have to be willing to, to, to open up and share with people. And I have to be willing to give people the same grace and forgiveness and all that stuff that I want for myself, because I think it's natural to give less grace than we want than we want.

Right. Like we went all a bunch of grace, but we don't want to give people grace. And so. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:33:05] That's good stuff. I have been, you know, just when you're talking about just you talk about the mystery of diversity and just being open and taking in new ideas or what not like the easiest example that comes to my mind is just food.

Like if I were to only eat food that people who look like me or from my part of the world eat, like, it'd be pretty boring life. How about you? 

Jon Miller: [00:33:28] 50% of my diet is pizza. 

DJ Heyward: [00:33:32] Yeah. Oh yeah. No, that's so true. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:33:35] But like your life has expanded so much more when you, you start to become open to, to just hearing different perspectives.

And we're looking at it through the lens of looking at that perspective of how Christ would look at it, right. And rather than just hanging out with the people that we would always hang out with. It's hey, you know, Luke 15, he's hanging out with the sinners and the tax collectors and and he's getting to hear their story and get to be with them.

And yeah, that's just the exciting part of life that we've got ahead of us. 

Jon Miller: [00:34:04] Yeah. I feel like I've learned a lot today and I think this is a good place to end, but I'd love to have you on again, on the podcast sometime. And I had a lot of fun listening to you and I, man, I just appreciate who you are. 

DJ Heyward: [00:34:14] Thank you guys.

Jon Miller: [00:34:16] Man, you 

show a lot of humility.

Like I said, an ability to listen that I think I need to work on, so. 

DJ Heyward: [00:34:21] Thank you. 

Jon Miller: [00:34:22] Thanks for being here with us today. 

DJ Heyward: [00:34:23] This was fun. 

Jon Miller: [00:34:24] Yeah. Awesome. 

DJ Heyward: [00:34:25] Let's do it again. 

Jon Miller: [00:34:26] Yeah. 

Well Beyond The Lines is a podcast that we record out of Central Christian Church in the Arizona Phoenix Valley. You can come check us out at centralaz.com slash.

nothing. centralaz.com. You can check us out. We have online services as well as a bunch of campuses in the Valley for you to check out if you're here local. And we'd love to say hi. And we are just pursuing the mantra of Love Beyond which as we talked about at the beginning of the podcast is just about trying to see from other people's perspectives and trying to listen and then walk and love beyond our lines, wherever we go.

So. Hope to see you next time. And thanks for joining for this podcast. Give us a rating on Apple podcast, please. 

DJ Heyward: [00:35:11] Yeah. Cool.