What does is mean to live in your true identity? For a Christian in the West it can be hard. But many are finding identity and you can join them. Watch this video about Christian Identity with Jamie and Donna Winship. The Winships have learned the teachings of Jesus about Christian identity. On this episode of Beyond The Lines we sit down with the Co-Founders of Identity Exchange and find identity even in Crisis.
New Episodes every other week!
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
What does is mean to live in your true identity? For a Christian in the West it can be hard. But many are finding identity and you can join them. Watch this video about Christian Identity with Jamie and Donna Winship. The Winships have learned the teachings of Jesus about Christian identity. On this episode of Beyond The Lines we sit down with the Co-Founders of Identity Exchange and find identity even in Crisis.
New Episodes every other week!
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
Jonathan Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. In a world filled with so much hate and division, we want to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw in our lives, where we feel like that is our limit. We can't listen past that line. We can't love past that line. We can't understand someone who's on the other side of the line, but our goal with this podcast is to treat all people with the dignity that they deserve.
Even if we disagree with them. My name is Jonathan Miller and I'm your host today on the podcast. And today we have some amazing guests on the podcast in Jamie and Donna Winship. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Jamie Winship: [00:00:33] Yeah, it's great to be here.
Donna Winship: [00:00:34] Yeah, we're thrilled to be here. Thank you for having us.
Jonathan Miller: [00:00:37] Awesome. I'm just so honored to have you guys on the podcast. Um, you guys have decades of experience in bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas. Um, I hear that you left America and you left the American dream behind, and you took your three boys and spent 25 years in Indonesia and Iraq and Jordan and Jerusalem.
It's just crazy. And they, and you've made amazing efforts in bringing societal and racial reconciliation in every place that you've gone. Man, I'm just so excited to have you today. You guys are amazing. I can't wait to learn all about what you have to share.
Jamie Winship: [00:01:15] Great. Yeah. We're looking forward to talking about these.
These are tough issues and, um, it's nice to be, um, with, with someone on a podcast where we can talk about how, how do we deal with all of this tension and conflict in the world?
Jonathan Miller: [00:01:26] Absolutely.
Um, you guys also have a website called IdentityExchange.com, right?
Jamie Winship: [00:01:32] That's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:01:33] And you've told me that you have some new courses coming out soon.
So how do people, how do people. Make sure they know that, that the when to get, get to be a part of those courses.
Donna Winship: [00:01:42] Right? So we have, um, a couple of courses already on there just video series that are kind of introductions to understanding, hearing from God, knowing and living in your true identity. And then we have a new course called becoming what you believe that will be out in the Spring.
And you can go to the website. And you can, um, sign up for our email list. That's the best way to know about events, where we're speaking any new material that's coming out and you can also follow Identity Exchange on Instagram.
Jonathan Miller: [00:02:17] Awesome. That sounds really good. So check it out at IdentityExchange.com. We're just going to just dive right in.
And um, I want to spend some good time here today just to hearing your stories, because it sounds like you have some amazing stories that I'm sure you've gathered over the years. I've listened. I've listened to some of them I've read some of them that you guys have had, um, in place, all the different places that you've been in Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan, Jerusalem.
Um, Let's start with this. First, what made you decide to start this journey to live in areas of the world that wouldn't exactly be considered peaceful places to live.
Jamie Winship: [00:02:52] Well it's, um, you know, it's like anything for anybody. It's a journey that, that you're on really for us in our relationship with Christ.
And I think, uh, Don and I met at university, um, she came to faith. She's from a Jewish background. I'll let her talk about that, but, um, she came to faith, uh, while we were in university and my, the goal of my life was to be a police officer. That's what I wanted to do that, uh, it was from, since I was in eighth grade is kind of the dream of my life.
And so, um, we went through university together, went into the police academy, straight out of the university. Donna has an education major. Um, we got married. When I graduated from the police academy, I qualified at the range, jumped in a car, drove to Richmond, Virginia, and we were married, um, by the rabbi in Richmond, Virginia, and then started into this life together with Donna as a teacher and me as a police officer.
And we had a real heart for the world. We had a deep heart for the, for people in the world that don't know the love of Christ. Uh, Partly because of the, I came to faith through the, uh, witness of a nurse while I was in the hospital and Donna through other girls at the university. Just people that cared about us and loved us.
And we realized, wow, if you're not intentional about this kind of life, you don't, you sort of, don't just stumble into understanding Christ and what he's done for you. You really have to see it. And experience it from people that love you for no other reason than they just love you unconditionally. So we were very moved by that and we wanted that to be a part of our life.
And so that's, we, you know, we were in a really good missions minded church, and although I loved being in the police department and we had a great, we were in the American dream, had the house started having the kids. For us, it just like wasn't there was more to do. There was more to, to, to, um, be involved in than just, you know, being the chief of police in Washington, DC or something like that.
And just live in that out. There was more to it.
Jonathan Miller: [00:05:04] Well, that's crazy because I think a lot of people would say, yeah, being the chief of police would be a pretty, that's a good way to end in your career, you know? But you, you feel like there was more to life than that?
Jamie Winship: [00:05:16] Well, it was these pesky verses where Jesus said, you know, he didn't come to be served.
He came to serve and to seek and to save the lost. So that was, yeah, that was just that just pressed on us all the time.
Donna Winship: [00:05:30] Yeah, and we, we wanted more for our family. Once we were married, started having kids buying the house, buying a car. We're just like, is this all there is. And especially I had a deep longing to bring the good news of the gospel to people who had never heard it because I was 19 and, um, had never
heard the gospel from a very Jewish family and, um, grew up in Virginia and just shocked that the first time I ever heard about Jesus being the Messiah was actually from Jamie, a random meeting with Jamie. And actually Jamie was the first person to ever tell me I was going to hell. And honestly, this is a big part of our story in later years.
That wasn't good news for me. And this is how we got into starting, um, identity exchange that the good news is that you can hear from God and that Jesus is with you. And he gives you an identity and a destiny. Not that you might go to hell one day. Um, but that was the thing that opened the door for me.
And a couple years later, I did embrace Jesus as the Messiah. But fast forward a few years, we're married. We're going after our careers and family and we just wanted more. And we had a longing if I lived in Virginia and had never heard of Jesus. What about people in other parts of the world? And we just had a longing. And then Jamie, about five years into all that was, um, offered a position.
He didn't seek it out with a government agency that is well-known, um, for its overseas work. And it was, that was the impetus that started, um, helping us see that maybe we could do this. Maybe we could go overseas and it's a long story for another time, but that was what got us thinking that way. And then we ended up resigning from the police department and going to seminary and
by 1990, our children were five, three, and 10 months. And we were on this little Island called Lombok in Indonesia. You might've heard, you might have heard of Bali. It's just East of Bali, 2.5 million SESAC Muslims.
Jonathan Miller: [00:08:05] Wow.
Donna Winship: [00:08:05] And just woke up one day and there we were and we promised each other, we would never look at each other and say, okay, what have we done?
Why did we do this? Because you gotta remember back then. No computers, no cell phones, no face time only communication was, you know, to place a phone call overseas with an operator and it costs $5 or $10 a minute. And we had to wait for the operator to call you back. But snail mail was our only communication.
It was quite a different world than it is now. And we learned a lot. In, um, and those, we were there for almost five years before we came home. So the, the little one went at 10 months and he was five years old when we came back. Um, yeah, so that's kind of the beginning of the journey.
Jonathan Miller: [00:08:58] Wow. Ah, that's amazing.
You really gave, gave it all up. Um, and you just went, I can't imagine that. Cause if you know, I moved over to Indonesia tomorrow, I probably could still FaceTime the grandparents and talk with that's a whole different world. Um, doing that move.
Jamie Winship: [00:09:16] But what was interesting about that. And, and I think this is what I, I really love to communicate to people is we didn't, it wasn't like we were going one way and abruptly turned around and went in a new direction.
It really was. It's like when Jesus called the disciples and he said, if you will follow me, I will make you to become fishers of men. And so our commitment wasn't like to let's go be foreign missionaries. Far from that idea. It was, if we follow Jesus, In our true identity into our vocation, where would it lead?
Here's where it doesn't lead. It doesn't lead to a dead end. It doesn't lead to an average life. It doesn't lead to, yeah, we just got a house and we got cars and our kids grew up and they went to school and they got, you know, and they had kids and it doesn't lead to that. It leads to at least according to the Scriptures, beyond what you could ask or imagine.
Jonathan Miller: [00:10:14] Wow.
Jamie Winship: [00:10:15] So, you know, when I, when the, when the government agency came, wanted to speak with me and they offered me a job, it was right in line with what we were doing. It wasn't like, I think this is really important. It wasn't like I went forward and renounced my current life and went into some new thing. It was, I kept saying to the Lord, I, my whole life I've wanted to be a police officer.
My whole life I've wanted to be involved in this. And it's like the Lord kept saying back to me, you have no idea what that means. And I'm like, come on, let's go. You want us, you think it means this, and it does, but it means way more than that. If you will follow me, I will lead you into serving and protecting at a level, you, you wouldn't even know how to pray for it.
And so when we moved to Indonesia, it was, it was for me and Donna, it made perfect sense. It wasn't like we were giving up everything. It was, it was like, no, this is how we're going to become who God made us to be and it's going to be a lifetime journey. And that's how we, we, we, we told our kids, you know, it was like, we're going on this big adventure together and you're involved in it and, and you're a part of it and you're going to love it.
It's going to be hard. We're not going to have any complaining aloud for the next 30 years, but, um, it's gonna it's for you. It's for the people that we're going to live among.
Donna Winship: [00:11:38] And I think
when, you know, hindsight's 2020, but at the time we weren't, like Jamie's said. Giving up anything and dropping who we were. I had a passion for education.
Jamie had a passion for justice, justice, and, um, social issues. And when we got to where we were, in Indonesia, that's those are the jobs we had. People we often asked us like, well, what was your platform? And we didn't have a platform. We had real jobs. Jamie worked in the university. I worked for the New Zealand government doing literacy training out in the villages.
And we were doing deep inside what we knew. We didn't have the words then to express it, but what were our true identities given to us by God. And we were pursuing those passions. And so then when we're with the people that we were there to serve, as Jamie said, Jesus was serving us and out of an overflow in our true identities, we're serving them.
It's amazing and it's fulfilling and we're not going off to work every day, and then coming home. Well, what's our ministry. It was just a full life in the kingdom of God. And, and we loved it. And people knew that we loved them and loved what we were doing.
Jonathan Miller: [00:13:08] That's amazing. Um, that is that's inspiring and encouraging too. Like that you can,
when you're living into your identity, that it fulfills you. It's not something that's like killing you on the inside. It's probably it's the opposite.
Jamie Winship: [00:13:21] It's very much the opposite. Yeah, that's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:13:24] Um, I lived for a short time in India, uh, in South India, uh, just for four months, but it changed my worldview just forever.
It really did. I started to realize that whole cultures can think just drastically differently and not in a wrong way, but just totally differently than my own culture of origin. Um, how did living in places like Jerusalem or Iraq or Indonesia. Um, how did that change? How you look at the world?
Donna Winship: [00:13:50] Well, I think one big thing is, um, Americans, I guess all people are, we're very ethnocentric.
And I think even in that first place where we lived in Indonesia, we realized we don't have, we don't own being the greatest parents that ever lived. We don't own having the best spiritual life that there ever was just because we're American Christians. And it was a very humbling experience to meet Muslim families and Hindu families where we learned from them how to be good parents.
We thought we're bringing all this to them. And I think the other. Um, aspect is that God is already there working. We're not, we're stepping into a work that's already in progress and we have the privilege of entering into what God is already doing. I had an amazing experience, um, our first year we lived on the Island of Bali to learn language.
I know y'all are like, oh, poor thing, but we lived in a house we didn't have any hot water. We didn't have any phone. We were close to a beach, but, um, just a little like 600 square foot house with nothing. And, uh, it was about six months into being there. And it was really hard, you know, imagine going into a grocery store and you can't read the labels on the cans, and if there's not a picture, you don't know what you're buying and you go up to do the money and you're at the cashier's mercy as she pulls the coins out of your hand.
Cause you're, you're still learning the money and just learning language and culture was difficult. And though, war, the Gulf War had broken out, and so we would go down to this big hotel a couple of times a week to watch CNN and deep in my heart I was hoping that all Americans would be sent home because the risk was too great to be in these Muslim countries at the time, even though we were very far from the Gulf countries.
Um, but secretly I was so homesick, and in such culture shock. And then one day it was actually on my birthday, which is March 26. So it would have been March 26, 1991. Uh, Jamie was off doing something and I had taken the kids down to the beach and you can imagine all the sellers, the Indonesian sellers to the tourist, just passing out stuff and handy, trying to get you to buy.
And at low tide, there would be this little sandbar out in the water and we would carry our stuff over our heads, out to the sandbar and put the kids' toys and a couple of chairs so that the sellers wouldn't come out there. And we could have a little bit of peace and quiet. And that's where I was with the kids and it was my birthday and it's just blue sky palm trees, just the most beautiful tropical aqua colored water you can imagine.
And I was just pouring my heart out to God about how homesick I was. And I got this sense of him speaking to my heart, just saying, I'm doing a major work here and I've invited you into it. If you want to go home, I'll choose somebody else to do it. And it was just an aha moment for me that we were invited into something that was going to be more than we could ask or imagine.
And it just hearing that communication from God, just made it click, made my whole world turn around and then chase after what we were doing with enthusiasm, culture shock disappeared. It was a game changer for sure.
Jonathan Miller: [00:17:35] Wow. I, uh, I love what you guys keep going back to, and the fact that so often when we think of missionaries or we think of even just evangelizing and we're like, I have to go do something to maybe even please God.
But what you guys keep going back to is like, God is already doing stuff. And we moved, you guys moved to Indonesia to go be a part of what he was doing. Not to go start something new.
Jamie Winship: [00:17:59] That's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:18:00] God's not doing it. So I'm going to have to go do it for him.
Jamie Winship: [00:18:03] Right. Absolutely. And when you, when you understand that it's, it's not such a
battle. It's a, then you realize it's a, as Donna said, it's a privilege. It's an honor to be here. That there's things that we're going to learn about ourselves and our relationship with Christ that are, that we're going to learn about our relationship with our own kids that are our own marriage, that we're going to learn by being in this place.
So you wouldn't want to leave. Like you it's it's, it's an, it's a joy to be there because this is transforming us. And in our process of transformation, we're actually, as Jesus says to the Samaritan woman from you will flow the rivers of living water into the Samaritan people. Jesus, didn't go up there to talk to the Samaritan men.
He sent her up there in her true identity. And so as we were experiencing transformation, It was overflowing into our Muslim neighbors or our Hindu neighbors. And it was really, really beautiful. We didn't know all that at the time it took, it took us years of slowly making so many mistakes. And on that, on Lombok, on that Island very quickly, I made mistakes in what I said, cause I was, I taught in a government university and my students were 99%.
Muslim. And so I'm suddenly teaching graduate students with a completely different worldview than anything I've ever known. That don't even believe that the same things about history that I believe. I have no idea. I have no idea what they think about anything. And so I just start speaking, as Donna said, like I knew the truth about everything and I got arrested for it because things I said, um, insulted or actually broke the law there.
And so I was informed, um, that I was, you know, under arrest and that, um, I was going to be put on trial in a Islamic court for, um, violating Islamic law and things that I said publicly. And so it was a strange scenario because we were on an Island. We just they didn't like, take me to jail. They just said, you know, you can't, there's nowhere to go.
Donna Winship: [00:20:17] You have to have an exit. You have to have an exit visa to leave. And since he was under arrest, there was no way we could have gotten an exit visa. So even though he was just at home, we couldn't leave.
Jamie Winship: [00:20:31] And we knew that the penalty was 10 years in prison. The sentence was 10 years in prison for what I was charged with.
And so I had to just wait for this hearing to come to happen. And, um, I wasn't allowed to defend myself because I wasn't Muslim. Only a Muslim can speak in the court. And so I was basically going to go into a courtroom scenario where I'm going to be charged, not allowed to speak. I'm not allowed any defense and the sentence is 10 years in prison.
So in that scenario the very depths of, it's not, it's not, it wasn't the depths of our faith. I mean, there really wasn't anything we can do. I notified the U S government. They were like, good luck. We're not going to intervene in this. So, um, it was more like learning about how God operates in a way that's not built on financial security and safety and all that, all this sort of American Christian ideas that I know God's with me because I have money and I'm safe.
Then you start reading the gospels from this perspective. It's like, we're actually more like in the gospel story in this scenario than we ever were in the US. It's or, or, or the book of Acts, you know, where they're being threatened. And so it was the, our prayer in that situation, our prayer life changed and it wasn't like deliver me, deliver me, deliver me, deliver me because there really wasn't anything that could happen.
There was no way to leave the situation. So our prayer life shifted and maybe one of the greatest ways in our life to just asking God what the believers and believers in Acts asked God when they were threatened was just two questions. What do you want us to know? And what do you want us to do? We'd never prayed like that.
We never, we were always telling God what to do. You know, God, we need you to do this. And, you know, and, but this was like, we were really quite powerless. And for an American Christian to be powerless is horrifying. It's a horrifying thought because that is not the gospel we preach or that we grow up in.
And it, so in that scenario, I was just asking God, what do you want us to know? And what do you want us to do? And it took our relationship with Jesus to a whole nother level, to which, um, made that situation invaluable to us to be in that, in that,sort of hopeless, powerless predicament. Then you really see what it means to know Christ and for God to say the beautiful thing he kept saying to Moses and to anyone that really said I'm not good enough Gideon and all of them, he, his answer is always, I am with you.
He doesn't tell you what's going to happen. You wish he would. But it's simply Lord, you know, I'm going to go into this thing, you know how we're always telling God what's going on. He doesn't seem to know, you know, like, do you know what I'm in trouble here in Indonesia? And I'm going to go to prison for 10 years.
And his answer, his response was always was, was I'm I'm right with you. I am right with you. And I'm with your kids and I'm with your wife. Yeah. But if I go to prison for 10 years, what's going to happen. I'll be with you and I'll be with your wife. And why isn't that enough of an answer for us? Why is that?
Why is the fact that God himself is saying I am is with you not enough for us, because we found out that is more than enough of an answer for any situation. I am with you, Emmanuel, God is with you. Enough.
Jonathan Miller: [00:24:07] Wow. So what
happened? That's awesome.
Donna Winship: [00:24:11] Want me to tell the short version?
Jamie Winship: [00:24:12] Yeah, go ahead.
Donna Winship: [00:24:13] Or do you want to tell it.
Jamie Winship: [00:24:14] Well, it was just, it was interesting.
And I like telling this story in Arizona because the people that really rescued us in this scenario were, were grad students at Arizona State University, who I've never met. Wow. One day. I hope I get to.
Donna Winship: [00:24:29] So
if
you're listening, we've told this story all over the world and we're waiting for you to contact us.
Jamie Winship: [00:24:33] These students to thank them.
But so, uh, I went to the trial on the date set and, um, and so in the, in the hearing room, in the place where the session was held up in the front are three Islamic clerics, the head of the university, and then a seat was for the head of the Islamic association of the country was, was vacant. And I knew that person and that person did not like us
in Indonesia. But that person wasn't there. So I go into the hearing and, um, they read the charges. Now here, this is, and I really want to emphasize this, the charges that they read, I did do. They, I broke their law. Why did I, you know, sometimes Christians think we can just go into other countries and break the law because we're Christians and we're doing it for God, but we would never tolerate that happening in our country.
So it's a kind of arrogance that I had that like, well, if I'm doing it for Jesus, I can break your laws. I can disrespect your people. But then when you go back and read the gospels or Acts, or the epistles, Paul even says to the Ephesians, I have not broken any of your laws. I was incredibly disrespectful
and how, the way I spoke about Islam, about the country. And so I was very humbled by it. So when they read the charges, I wasn't falsely accused and all that stuff. It was like, the Lord was saying to me, you are wrong in how you're doing this. And this is, this is what happens. Um, and so I'm sitting there and I'm listening to the charge and I'm saying to the Lord, I, I they're telling the truth.
They're not making up charges. I broke their law and this is the penalty for violating their law. Um, and so I'm sorry about that. And what do you want me? I get that. I now know that. There's, there must be another way to do this. And what do you want me to do now? So I'm just sitting there and they read the charges.
The, the person, the dean who brought the charges is there. He he's the one that says he quotes me exactly. And, and that's it. And if you have anything to say, I'm not allowed to talk anyone who wants to say anything on his behalf, you know, and, and it's silent, but then this person comes in the door behind me.
He walks in this man, walks in and he walks to the front and he's wearing the uniform of a university professor. And he walks to the front and the whole thing is in Indonesian, but he in English, he says, I want to say something. Well, I don't, I don't know who this person is. I've never seen this person. But what I do know about him is number one, he's a Muslim because they let him speak.
Number two, he has a lot of wasta, they call it power because he just walked right in. And he's any speaking English to show his education level. So he's really making a power play in the room, very forcefully. And he says, you all know who I am. And they all nod their head, yes, we do. And he says, I would, I just want to say something about what's happening here and then I will leave and you can do what you're going to do.
And he, he tells this story about being a PhD student at Arizona State University, and that when he was there as a student, him and his wife, He, he was sent by the Indonesian government. And if he fails, he would be blackballed and never work again. But he knew he was going to fail the program. Cause it was too hard.
He has a PhD in linguistics. He's telling this story. So, he's doing another thing that's strange is he's admitting weakness. He was telling, telling the court when I got there, I was going to fail. Which that's not typical in that culture to be that truth truthful. And, um, and so he tells this story, I'm going to fail. My wife and I are sitting on the bed in our student housing crying.
Cause we're not going to make it. And we're going to get sent back to Indonesia and we're never going to work again. When these two guys knock on the door, they come in, there are these American guys. They say to this Indonesian student, we know this program is really difficult. It's hard for us. It's our first language.
It's your second language. We're here to help you pass. He's never met them. He doesn't know who they are. And, and so they said, we're going to help you pass this program. And he makes it through the PhD program higher than both of them. At a higher level than both of them. And he says to the courtroom, these two men and their wives who took care of my wife were never too tired, never too busy, to sacrifice on my behalf.
He said they sacrificed, they loved me with no condition. And he goes, he says, and of course I knew like, oh my gosh, is he talking about Christians? And so he's, then he's telling the story. And he says, and after I knew them for a little while, they invited me to a meeting on Wednesday nights and I'm like, oh my gosh.
And he said, and I went to the meeting and the meeting was a Bible study. And I went to that Bible study every Wednesday night for three years.
Jonathan Miller: [00:29:26] Wow.
Jamie Winship: [00:29:27] And then he says to the courtroom, is anyone in here saying I'm not a good Muslim because I went to a Bible study with these amazing Christians for three years. Anyone accusing me of anything.
And nobody says a word, they're all have their heads down. Like, no, no, no, you're a good Muslim. He said, so here's my question to you. To the court. He said, I'm considered in the U S as a Muslim, an enemy to Christians by many Christians, I'm their enemy. And yet these two Christians came and loved their enemy and sacrificed for me unconditionally because they believe that God asked them to do it.
He said, I find that remarkable. He said, now we have a Christian in our Muslim country. Hm. And he said, I agree, he's made some mistakes here. However, isn't it, if the Muslim faith is so great, if it's greater than the Christian faith, the Christian faith will love their enemy. What is the Muslim faith going to do with a Christian in our midst?
We're going to put him in jail for 10 years. I don't think that's right. And then he just walked out. And the, the, the lead, um, Islamic cleric said, I think we need to drop these charges right now. And they did, they dropped the charges and they said to me, you're free to go. So I walk out and the guy is standing out there.
Uh, um, smoking a cigarette. I thought it was an angel, but then, you know, he was smoking. I thought, nah, probably not. But so I say to him, who are you? And he tells me his name. And he says, did you see the empty seat in the front? And I said, yeah. And he goes, do you know who that is? Who that's supposed to be?
And I said, yeah, the head of the Islamic association of the country. He said, correct. He said that guy was killed in a car accident yesterday. I'm the new one. And he goes, I've been just appointed to that position. And I saw this incident. You know, on, I dunno, I was notified of it. And so he flew there from Jakarta to Lombok, which is like flying from LA to New York.
He flew there to, to pay back his two friends at Arizona State University. That's what he said. He goes, so I want to tell you something, this is, I did this for those men that loved me. He said, but I want to tell you something. When you talk to Muslims, you are offending them and you are hurting our feelings.
I know you believe Jesus sent you here to talk to us about Jesus, but you better find another way to do it. I have never forgotten that lesson.
Donna Winship: [00:31:52] And that was a pivotal turning point for us. If you recall what I said a few minutes ago, uh, that the good news is good news. And what we were saying was not good news.
It was offending people.
Jonathan Miller: [00:32:05] Wow.
Jamie Winship: [00:32:05] And actually producing conflict.
Donna Winship: [00:32:07] Yeah, right. Producing more conflict rather than bringing peace and truth and love. And. You know, our message was, this is why I'm right and this is why you're wrong. And why would we, would you say that to your wife or your husband or your teenage daughter?
How does that go? It doesn't go so well, does it? This is why I'm right and this is why you're wrong. And it caused us to really take pause and rethink everything. And so we ended up finishing our term on that Island. We were in the States a little bit and went to a new place um still in Indonesia, in West Java, Indonesia at an international school.
And that's where we really put all of our training aside, really all of, of how we had been taught in the past, even how we ourselves had been shared with and, and taught and or discipled. And just re-read the gospels. What is Jesus doing? How did he talk to people? And Jamie brought up the Samaritan woman.
That's a huge study in identity. She she's encountering Jesus, at this well, this place of water, and he uses the metaphor of living water in a false identity. She's getting her identity from her circumstances and what men think of her, how she's been objectified by men. And after just one afternoon with Jesus,
she realizes that's not who she is. And that if she drinks from him, as Jamie said out of her will, will flow fountains of living water. And then when she goes to the village, the men of the village can see the transformation in her and they know it's true. And they see her for who she really is. And they run down to meet Jesus.
He didn't say anything about hell. He didn't say anything about praying a little prayer. He didn't say anything about converting to Christianity. And we realized like we, we don't know our own identity. We're trying to be something to please the church to please the people who support us to fulfill some kind of notion of some kind of role overseas.
And we were getting identity from what people think of us, from what we're doing from what we have, or don't have, where in reality, only an encounter with Jesus, can you discover your true identity. And when you do it overflows out of you and draws other people in. And so in that second place that we lived in Indonesia also for four years in West Java, We found like-minded people there.
We had a small team, the first place, but we were the only Westerners. It was really hard, but here we were at an international school, there was a big language school. And we found a lot of like-minded people that were bringing the good news of the gospel of the kingdom of God, rather than trying to convert people to another religion, to another religious system.
Jonathan Miller: [00:35:28] There is so much there. Yeah. I have so many like follow up questions and thoughts. One thing I just want to mention that maybe people at home might have missed is that the people who loved that man, and at AZ University, that they're nameless to you.
Jamie Winship: [00:35:44] Yeah. That's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:35:45] Totally nameless.
Jamie Winship: [00:35:46] Right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:35:46] And they have probably no idea the ripples of love that you guys have no idea how that impact that you met him for one time.
Jamie Winship: [00:35:55] That's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:35:56] Uh, the official.
Jamie Winship: [00:35:57] Right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:35:57] And then. The I'm guessing you never saw him again, like.
Jamie Winship: [00:36:00] Very rarely.
Jonathan Miller: [00:36:01] Like the ripple love and sacrifice have probably gone out far beyond what those two students will ever know.
Jamie Winship: [00:36:08] That's right.
Jonathan Miller: [00:36:09] And that is so powerful. When we choose to love instead of, it's our favorite argument in our culture.
Uh I'm right. You're wrong. That's our favorite. That's our favorite way to talk in almost every circumstance. That's what we want to say. No matter what. It's like, I'm right. Here's why. You're wrong. And now you're telling me that I'm wrong, but I'm not listening anymore. Um, that's our favorite thing to do.
The, the ripples is just astounding to me of, of just that rock of love that was thrown into that man, that Muslim man's life at Arizona University that just spread and who knows how far it's gone. That's really incredible.
Jamie Winship: [00:36:47] Yeah. And we, you have to remember that when you are talking to any human being, you have no idea
the impact it has. Jesus said it, if you give a drink of water to the least of these, you're giving it to me. That is not a statement to be taken lightly. And so when you're just going through the course of a day, if you're, if you're thinking in terms of interbeing and interconnectedness, that, uh, the way that.
God's universe works. It's all interconnected. Then you would, you would look at people quite differently. You would, you would speak to people quite differently. And, and this is how you have peace is you, as Donna said, and as we learned from the gospels, Jesus will only speak to the true identity of the person he's speaking to.
That's why people loved him. That's why people wanted to be with them because he kept calling the true them out. He, he wouldn't debate the false identity with a person, which is what, we're, what we end up doing. So, yeah, it's so true. Yeah. I mean, we have so many stories of us talking to a person that 10 years later, you know, came back on us or vice versa, but it's very beautiful when you start, when you start realizing wow.
In the course of the day that I'm going to go through right now, there I will have world impact with every person I talk to. I may never know it, but it is true. And the enemy's lie is that's of no value. That persons of no value. That conversations have no value. This is a waste of your time. That's how the enemy talks.
Nothing is a waste of your time. No person is of no value.
Jonathan Miller: [00:38:31] Wow, that is massive. And I think that's a great place to end this episode on. Um, let's do another episode with you guys, if that, is that okay with you?
Jamie Winship: [00:38:40] Yeah, love to.
Jonathan Miller: [00:38:41] We're going to do another episode. So be looking forward to that. Um, thank you so much for being here for this one.
Uh, so much to think about. I really recommend everybody listen to this again. This is incredible stuff like what God is doing, what God has done in your life. I'm sure you have hundreds of stories, just like that one. I wish we had time to listen to all of them. We will do another podcast. And if you're still listening to this podcast at this point, you must love it.
So thank you so much for being a part of this community. We're a brand new podcast. And, uh, do you mind showing your love, uh, by just reviewing our Apple podcast, go to Apple podcast and put a review on us? You can just put the stars, hopefully it's five. Um, you can write a review for us. That'd be awesome.
Right now we only have six ratings. So if you can give us a few, let's try to get 20. By the end of this episode.
Jamie Winship: [00:39:28] We need 20.
Jonathan Miller: [00:39:29] So we're trying to grow, let's get this message out to more and more people can learn what it means to just listen to other people. And. Maybe even learn a new way of sharing the gospel that we just aren't aware of.
So, um, let's get our, our let's get together on that and, and please rate us, uh, this is just to get the message out is no ego thing. I don't care. Um, but, uh, just to get the message out. Um, thank you so much for joining us today for the beyond the lines podcast, we record here at Central Christian Church in Phoenix, Arizona.
Our church is pursuing the mantra of Love Beyond which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace. If you're interested at all at learning more about our church, check us out at CentralAZ.com. We have online services, as well as a bunch of different locations in the Phoenix Metro area
if you're local. We'll see you at next, uh, our next episode of Beyond The Lines until then start loving beyond your lines.
Jamie Winship: [00:40:25] That's right.