Beyond The Lines

Can You Doubt God? | Beyond The Lines Ep. 9

June 16, 2021 Central Christian Church of Arizona
Beyond The Lines
Can You Doubt God? | Beyond The Lines Ep. 9
Show Notes Transcript

Is it okay to doubt God? Can you doubt God and will He be angry with you? What does it mean to live in your true identity? Why are our fears in our lives are separating us from God? There are some loud voices who say it is a sin to doubt God. This is a lie and unbiblical. You can doubt God. Find out more in this episode of the Beyond The Lines podcast as hosts Jon Miller, Clayton Eddleman, and new host DJ Heyward reflect on the past episodes with Jamie and Donna Winship.

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:00] Well, hey! Welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. Uh, everybody has got different perspectives and sometimes we draw lines in the sand and we say, hey, we are not going to love beyond that line. And so on this podcast, we want to talk about those lines. We want to learn how to listen and hear different perspectives.

And so I'm Clayton Eddelman. I'm one of the hosts on this podcast and I've got with me Jonathan Miller, who was one of our other hosts. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:22] Hey, everybody. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:23] Yeah. And then our newest host, uh, you might recognize him from three episodes ago. We interviewed DJ and DJ. I'm so glad you're here, man. 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:31] Hey, Hey, I'm so happy to be here.

Join the team. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:33] Good. 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:33] It's fun. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:34] Yeah, man, we just had a great time with you and we had a great time with DJ, uh, that were like, man. Wouldn't be great if he could just be, just be on our podcast. So he said, I'll think about it. And then he's like, I don't know if I like these guys. 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:50] Everything's a trial run. All right.

So we can break up. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:54] This is a grace period for us. 

Jon Miller: [00:00:55] He 

didn't say any of that. 

DJ Heyward: [00:00:56] We're dating.

Jon Miller: [00:00:59] Yeah, we're dating, but no, he didn't actually say any of that yet. He was very enthusiastic about it. So I'm glad to have you on the podcast. 

DJ Heyward: [00:01:05] Thanks guys. Yeah. Excited to be a part of the team. Yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:08] So for today's podcast, um, so yours came out and then we've got, uh, some episodes that have come out since where Jonathan, uh, interviewed Jamie and Donna.

Winship really good at stuff. Yeah, good stuff. So we just want to talk about it today and kind of take away some of the key points that we listened and took to heart during that episode and reflect on it and kind of just, just a discussion format. And hopefully you can learn something new or be reminded of something as well.

So yeah. Wants to, uh, wants to kick us off what stood out.

Jon Miller: [00:01:40] I got to start by just saying like, yeah. It was such an incredible opportunity that even though this podcast has given me just already, it's a brand new podcast as this is brand new for us. But, um, to sit across the table from incredible people, like the Winships, like seriously, uh, by the way, you can't really listen to this podcast without going and listening to those ones.

So if you're listening to this right now and you're like, oh, I just want to listen to Clayton and DJ and Jon, because they're really cool people. 

DJ Heyward: [00:02:05] Which is okay. 

Jon Miller: [00:02:06] Which is okay, you can do that. Uh, but I still recommend you go and listen to their podcasts first. They have two podcasts with us. They're just released before this.

And they're so good. Like, and honestly I'm being totally honest. Like it was like life changing. Like, I mean, not like, uh, you know, Changing my hair color or anything like that, but like life changing experience sitting across the table from them and just hearing their experience and how they view God and, and all that.

So like, wow. What a tremendous opportunity to just be a part of that. And, uh, wow. That's awesome. I just want to start off by saying that. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:40] Yeah, yeah, no, there's tons to take away from it. And I was just even jealous, just like listening to it. I was like, dude, you got to spend time with them and have these conversations.

And, um, some of the stories that Jamie told I was just like, that just sounds like a Bible story. Like almost like it's like Paul or something and he's gone through something. Um, but it was so cool. 

DJ Heyward: [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. Completely, completely amazing. And just how they're able to, um, uh, bring you into their story and also pull out some incredible principles and show who Jesus is in the midst of that.

And so, I mean, I've listened to Jamie. You know, a few times before and I never walk away without be like me and I got to do better. There's some things that I need, I need to do better, but that's just their, their ministry in their heart and incredible. 

Jon Miller: [00:03:28] That's one of the main things they talked about on the podcast was identity.

Like what did you guys get from like what they talked about, about identity and how that affects how we just live our lives? 

DJ Heyward: [00:03:39] Yeah. I mean, I think, um, That's just a, a huge thing. I think we spend most of our lives. I mean, we're all still pretty, pretty young. And we spend a lot of our time operating in a false identity.

And so we are looking at the world, we're looking at other people, we're interacting with other people and not understanding who God has called us to be. And, um, uh, Donna has talked about. Uh, you know, who, who she is and they both talked about who is God calling them. They talk about this God giving, uh, people in the Bible, different names and calling them who he wants them to call.

And like, man, there's, there's a lot of times in my life where I feel like I don't understand completely who my identity is. And it's important for me to understand. I think we all do that because when we are in our identity, like they were pointing out, uh, we're able to, um, Interact with the world in such a way that God can use us in, in, in like, in an amazing way. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:41] Living in your identity versus not living in your identity and how that gives you life or takes life like away from you.

So I wrote here was, I was saying, um, you know, she said, you know, when you live into your identity, God has given you, it is life-giving. And it's like, you're living in the kingdom of God. And I think. Yeah, it's easier for us maybe to think about that more. So in the sense of like pastoral ministry and church ministry, um, to think what I'm doing right now is the kingdom of God.

Um, but then I think about it even from their perspective of. You know, Jamie was a police officer, which I had no clue that was part of his background. And that was cool to hear. Um, and then to hear Donna's, you know, she's got to focus in education and teaching. It sounds like, and how they're living out their jobs or their roles.

Um, and it was giving them kind of some of their purpose, but then how God kind of rewired it and said, hey, no, this is what I really want you to do. And you can kind of still do some of the things you're already doing, but on a greater scale for my kingdom, I thought that was, that was really cool to hear.

DJ Heyward: [00:05:45] Yeah. I mean, we just think about like, you know, a lot of times we get into a career or into a job and, um, we get our identity from what the job is giving our identity in. Right. And they're like, Hey, listen, God is, has given you an identity and in your career and in your job, you're going to live that out.

It's a different paradigm shift that I think, um, can be really hard to grasp because, uh, you know, the job, the career is pretty tangible, you know, and, um, God is like telling us no, listen, like there's things that I have for you that is true to who you are. And like you were saying, like the whole, like life-giving, and that it's going to inform who, what you're going to do, like who you are, is going to inform what, what you're going to do.

And I just hear them and see them kind of live that out in a, just an amazing way is I think, man, I, I think it's challenging for me. 

Jon Miller: [00:06:41] In our culture, that's one of the first things that we ask people is like about our identity. It's like, oh, what do you do? What's your job? How does that affect who you are?

And that's how we associate people. Oh, you're a pastor, that's your identity, but it is my identity, a pastor, or is it something more that God has given me, you know, is it, is my identity, a computer programmer or as my true identity like a creator or, um, being like my creator and creating new things and in my aspect and in my field, you know?

DJ Heyward: [00:07:14] Yeah. That's so good. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:07:16] It's kind of exciting as a follower of Christ, no matter who you are, uh, you work in church ministry, you work in sales, you work in education in the medical field. Doesn't matter, like. If you trust God with, with what he's got and what he's going to do for you and through you, uh, I think that's exciting because you're a part of building his kingdom and doing that.

Jon Miller: [00:07:36] Yeah. I mean, that was one of the coolest parts, I think of what they, when they said they moved overseas, it was like they said, when we moved our seas, we didn't change who we are. Like we were just going to do what God had already made us in our true identity to be. And I was like, mind blowing to me. I was like, wow.

Because normally I would say that is a big identity shift, but they said they're just living into what they already were. Like, that's what God does with us when we allow him to be the fulcrum of our identity. 

DJ Heyward: [00:08:06] Yeah. And like, you were like asking them the question, like, man, like you gave up, like you gave up all this stuff.

Like, no, like we really didn't give up much because this is something, this is the road that we were already on. And I think what is easy for us to do. Um, when we hear stories like that with people going overseas and doing all these crazy things, it's like, well, I can never do that. And the answer is that may be true because maybe that's not what God designed you to do.

Wow. Maybe it's something right in your local community. Maybe it's stepping out and loving people that you don't know. You know, you're talking about this whole idea of loving beyond the line. That that's what they did. And sometimes we can look at somebody else's story and say, well, man that's, that's so cool.

Like that's, that's amazing. And sometimes we can forget that God is calling you to something very specific to who you are and whatever that is, God is preparing you for for, for that. Like, you know, they, they crossed the line of, you know, leaving, uh, their, their home land to go love on another nation in that people group.

But they've already been on that. So that makes me think, okay, what has God uniquely is preparing me for in this season? To then go forth and, and to do, and to do his will. And it doesn't lead everyone overseas. Sometimes it just leads us right to the person next to us and being open to that and living out our true identity inside of that. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:28] Going back to the topic of identity and you, you had said, you know, they didn't change who they were, like, they were already headed on that path, but I thought it was really a humbling.

That they were that Jamie, you know, in particular telling one of his stories, it was ready to admit like his wrongdoings and in his identity. So going back to that story about how he was facing 10 years in prison, potentially, and he talks about like, hey, how I was. Talking about Islam was not respectful.

It was breaking the law there. And he talks about this confession too, of like, hey, we're, we're confessing and just telling the truth of what I've done wrong. Um, and so kind of going with that, uh, I think too that Jamie and Donna just pointed out like, hey, it's okay to say where you maybe have had some wrongdoings and, um, and your identity or how you did something, because sometimes we can identify like, hey, I do this.

And because I did this, it's attached to my identity now. Um, but I think what really showed was their identity to, to, Christ's model of a, let me, let me admit where I'm messed up, uh, and be forgiven and move on. Um, but what did you guys think about that story? Just the one about them getting or Jamie potentially being arrested.

Jon Miller: [00:10:47] My favorite part of that story was that, he wasn't going to finish the story. When I, when we were talking about it was like, yeah, I'm done. And I'm like, w what happened? Like what actually happened? And, uh, that was incredible. But another thing is like just the, I think the humbling place that he was put in to realize,

that he was wrong. And he, I think he even said something like it's terrifying for an American Christian to admit that they are wrong because we want to know all the things we want to not just know all the things, but we wanted to say that we already know them. Like it's already set in stone. And I, something I learned from them is like, God is not set in stone.

You know, he's revealed himself to us, especially in the Scriptures and through other people. But. That's not everything, you know, and as long as everything's in line with what he's revealed to us already, you know, there's so much more to learn about, you know, and, uh, that really stuck out to me. It's like, God, isn't set in stone.

Um, but we like to try to make him set in stone and that God said to him, you were wrong the way you did this was wrong. And, uh, that was a very humbling experience for him. And, um, Even a humbling thing for me is just realizing, oh wow. Like I even went, I, you know, just like a week later I was praying and there was somebody in my life at the time where I very much disagreed with what they believed in.

And I was, I was talking to God and I was like, what if I'm actually wrong God and wrong about you. Maybe they're right wrong about, um, You know stuff. And I had this overwhelming sense. It wasn't like audible words or anything, but overwhelming sense of God being like, yeah, you are wrong, but I love you anyways.

And that's a freeing thought. It really is. 

DJ Heyward: [00:12:36] Yeah. Let me, I. And I, I agree. I think, especially in our culture, um, in this Western world that we live in, like, we don't like to admit that we're wrong. It it's, I guess it's, uh, it's us showing weakness. Maybe, maybe that's that's, that's where that, where that comes from.

And, um, being able for, for Jamie to be in that spot to say, uh, you know, uh, I am wrong. And the crazy thing is, was what he was doing was trying to be pointing people to Jesus. That's the crazy part about it. And so how easy is that for us to do in our culture today? It's just to make enemies out of people or to put a line in front of people or to treat people in such a way, because I'm doing it for God.

And God's like, no, the way that you were doing that. Thank you for trying to point people to me, but the way that you were doing that was, was unacceptable. And I think it's so easy for us as Christians to justify our behavior and treating people, um, in treating, not treating people well, because we're doing it for God and it's just like, man, that's, that's not right.

That's just not right. That's not. When we look at Jesus and they, and he, and they mentioned the story of how he, uh, Jesus and the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman and how he, uh, called her identity out and loved her, where she was. And they didn't really condemn her. He didn't really do it in a, in a bad way.

He, he, he was calling who calling out who she was in a loving way, showing her that he is the way, and I'm loving her through all of her pain and all of them. The stuff that she's been through because of the men of the time, like man, like we w like he took care of her in that moment, and it's easy for us to have our theology or however we want to practice in a pragmatic way.

You know, what, what we feel like we're being taught in scripture, but we can run people over with that. And that's like that that is an in and of itself creating a line. Even either creating a line for myself or for someone else to create a line against me. And we're supposed to be people of peace and people are going to tell the truth and love people where they are.

And that's just a really eye opening story of how Jamie was kind of taught that like, there's, there's a way to do it. There's a way to go about it. And so the story was obviously crazy, you know, the guy coming in, um, at the, at the end there and kind of shutting the whole thing down. I mean, that's, that's, that's just all crazy, but I think the heart of the story is there's, there's an approach to, um, how we are supposed to, to, to love on people and do, do the work of God and yeah.

And all of that kind of stems back from the identity that, that, that God has given us. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:15:22] Yeah. That was my favorite part of the story was because I listened to this one while driving, and I'm just painting this picture in my head of like a courtroom. And, and then here comes this guy walking in and talks to the judges or whatnot.

But what I loved was the ripples of love that the Winships referred back to of how two random guys, who to what we believe and what we know were Christian guys. And they just loved on, uh, that, that Muslim guy and his wife, as they were here at ASU, like that was insane to me. I've just two Christians that are completely unrelated to, to the Winships, how that played into, um, Jamie being, being set free.

And it's made me think about the, the daily relationships and just interactions we have with people. Just an idea of like, hey, this is every interaction with someone else. That's like, holy ground. Because you don't know what God's going to do with it. Um, yeah. And like, yes, we, we know and we've heard that, you know, everyone is created in the image of God, but it's super easy forget.

Uh, but when I, when I back to those ripples, I'm like, man, like how I treat somebody in a, in a supermarket line or something like no clue how that could affect somebody. We don't think it might have an effect for the kingdom, but that ripple could eventually come and one way or another, um, Like, I dunno. I just imagine a scene and, and heaven one day where we, we get to see where those ripples played out and what happened from it.

Jon Miller: [00:16:56] And something, he said where he was like, there is no person out there where it's a waste of time to spend time with them and to talk with them and show them that they're loved. There's the person like that doesn't exist in the world because they're all made in God's image. And that was that's, kind of a interesting thought, because I think there's a lot of people, even in our minds that what you'd be like, oh no, they're not worth the time of day.

Like, it just, it's, it's easy to fall into that camp. You know, I just think of driving. This is the easiest thing. This is the easiest thing for me to think of like the easiest place to de-humanize people is to be like, oh, that car is such a jerk, you know? And then. You know, I, I have my own, I'm not gonna talk.

I say what my own driving, you know, the way my own driving theology is what's coming to my, my.

DJ Heyward: [00:17:45] Driving philosophy. 

Jon Miller: [00:17:47] My philosophy of driving. I'm not going into that. But sometimes I'm in the car with somebody I really respect and they're driving and, uh, they're great people and they're wonderful people, but they're driving in a different, totally different philosophy than my driving.

And I realized, oh man, like, just because somebody's driving some a different way, which I totally disagree with. It doesn't mean they're a terrible person, but we have you ever experienced that? It's easy to dehumanize somebody in another car because you're like, oh no, they're doing it wrong. You know, like, and they're such a jerk or I'm going to flip them off, but.

If you're sitting in that car with them, right then would you be making the same comment if you knew them as a person? I don't know. I don't think so. 

DJ Heyward: [00:18:27] I think your parallel is really good when it comes to, um, not only dehumanizing people, uh, who are different than us, like, you know, the Muslims and you talked about doing that,

um, when he was in Baghdad, which I'm pretty sure we'll get to in a minute. Um, but it's also easy for us to do that within the church. And I, and I don't mean just. I mean in the church locally and globally, um, we have people, well that disagree, maybe on some non-essential, um, philosophy on some theological things, you know, and it's so easy for us as Christians to want to start fighting with, with one another about these, about these things.

And like you're saying dehumanizing people and how they practice their faith and, um, really separating the church. And that's one of the things that Jamie also talks about as well as this idea of sin. Sin equaling separation. And so, uh, what do you guys think about like this idea of sin being more about separation than moral behavior?

Because in my mind, I've kind of grown up in the space where, oh, when you sin it's because you did something morally wrong, but really the definition of sin is when we are separating ourselves from God and we're separating ourselves from his creation. So what do you guys think about that?

Jon Miller: [00:19:43] I've never, actually, I remember him saying that.

I was there. Um, but physically I've never made it connection to what you just said of it being the difference between being separate and, and sin being a moral failure. Like, yeah, I've been raised it. Every sin is a moral failure, no exception, but is sin and actually just a separate, obviously it's separates us from God.

I've heard that forever, you know, but it also separates me from other people, but the, but I've always been more focused on the moral part of it. I've never been focused on the separate part of what sin separation, you know, the tearing apart that sin can cause in both communities and my relationship with God, that's definitely not the focus, uh, of the way I've thought in the past or,

or now, even.

Clayton Eddleman: [00:20:38] That idea makes sense when I boil it down to relationships and how we treat other people, right. If you love me, you'll love my people. And if you are distancing yourself from those who God has put around you to love. And so in Jamie's case, um, he was talking about the local, uh, Iraqis that were there and how he started to, uh, react to them because he was afraid.

And then his team of Christians are started to react to them as well, because they were following him. Um, I think it just makes sense, like, yeah, like God has called us to love those people. Um, and you look back even two on the ASU students, like. God called them to, to love the, the Muslim student that was in their PhD program regardless.

And so when you do start to think, hey, am I separating myself from the mission that you've called me to do of, of loving others and loving my neighbors? Um, I think it's super, it makes crystal clear sense and I'm like, you I've been in that camp where it's. Like yeah. Sin as a moral failure. Yes. Um, which, uh, I think it can, because it's a disservice to someone else.

Um, you know, and, but I just, I haven't thought about sin and the other way of it's distancing yourself. 

DJ Heyward: [00:21:55] Yeah. And it, and it's deeper. It's like, you're, you're separating from the things that God has created. And so, um, the people that God has created this earth that he has created, like, you're, it's so easy to separate ourselves from that.

And he taught he, Jamie kind of talks about it in the book, in the podcasts. It's like, oh, we're, we're not okay with the, with the moral stuff. We get that. But when it comes to us, separating ourselves from him and separating us up from each other, we kind of let that slide because we justified in our fear.

He didn't say that part. I kind of add, I'm adding that part. So, sorry, sorry, Mr. Winship I'm at, I'm adding, I'm adding to, but it's, it's it's because of our fear is when we are, um, able to separate ourselves because we are justifying the actions that God is like, no, like I did that for you first. I loved you first.

And so therefore you're supposed to do other people and all Christians, we all, we, we will all agree with this. We want people to know who Jesus is. Jesus tells us if you want people to know who I am, you need to love each other well. You need to love, love people. Well, and that is, and when you look at the Muslim guy who saved the Jamie's part of that life, you know, 10 years got them out, he didn't talk about what he learned in the Bible study.

He talked about how they loved him. When he was in crisis, when he was sitting with his wife, trying to figure out, okay, what, like, what are we going to do? These two guys loved him where he was. They invited him to the Bible study. That was great. We should do those things. We should invite people to Bible study.

So he may say that we sent invite people to church on Sunday. We should do that. But it has to, in the context of loving them, because that's, what's going to. That that's what, that's what they're, they're not gonna remember who knows what that's going to do to that guy in it, his future, obviously he's still, uh, a Muslim man and really, yeah,

proud of that. But, um, he was able to recognize, even though they disagree with us, that the Muslim religion and Christian religion, or were told that that were opposed, like he said, we're enemies and there's things that they believe differently. He understood super clear what it was like to be loved. Hmm.

And that's what people understand. And that's what I think is so incredible about, you know, their story and what Jamie's platform is trying to teach people, you know, even with their true identity is like this, this idea of, of loving people is so deep and it's so, especially with our political climate and all the other stuff that we have going on in, in Western culture, it is so easy to put up these lines that,

that we need to break down. And it's all four to five of fear, fortified people living out of their false identity fortified with, with you name it, you know, with, with whatever. And that's what the enemy wants. He wants us to be divided. He wants us to do that. He wants us to not understand that this whole Christian walk is isn't about behavior management.

It's about love and action. And when we're doing that, we're able to connect to God and connect to his people and all that. So that's just incredible part of the story that I liked and something that I, that I wrestled with, that I am wrestling with right now. 

Jon Miller: [00:25:19] Yeah. And that fear element just keeps coming up and up, like over and over again, because like, uh, it was his fear that was driving him apart from his team members who were.

I'm from Baghdad right at, because he was afraid of people like them would be the ones that would end up killing his kids someday, which I don't believe his kids ever harmed. Anyways, they had team members. I talked with him afterwards after the podcast, but they talked about how their team members there's people that their cars were shot up completely.

Like, uh, one team member lost everybody in their family. And so it was not a safe place. And, but, I think one thing that really stuck out to me was when Jamie said, we believe the worst thing that can happen to us is to die. And we don't think that maybe this, like when we're, you know, that actually is a good thing.

We don't believe that God has something on the other side of us. We don't actually believe that because the worst thing that could happen to us is for us to lose our freedoms, us, to lose our lives and lose our money. Those are the worst things we have that can happen to us in our Western culture. And in our Western Christianity is.

But God says there's so much more, so why do we fear that? Why do we fear losing our lives? Why do we fear losing even our, our family's lives when we actually follow God? And the Bible is so clear, like, don't be afraid of those things. Don't be afraid of losing those things love despite all of that, like that was mind blowing to me.

And I even confessed that to them. I was like, my greatest fear is that I would die and leave my kids without a father. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:26:54] That's relatable. 

Jon Miller: [00:26:55] Yeah. And. And he said, do you, I mean, do you believe that God wouldn't provide for your kids if you were gone? And I was like, I guess I do. And that's why I'm afraid of it.

Like it's real. And so even just confessing that has helped me. Think through that process. I wouldn't say I'm totally, totally healed of that fear, but like, um, it's definitely helped work wonders and, and, but it's like, totally like everybody in our country or culture almost is afraid to die or leave somebody behind or, um, that 

DJ Heyward: [00:27:27] Or lose their way of life.

Jon Miller: [00:27:28] Yeah. They lose their way of life and that's not the life that God calls us to God calls us to, just trust him in every circumstance and that he will be able to provide that, that I can trust him to provide for my family, even if for some reason I was to die, you know, if I really believe in God, that's what he calls me to do.

Is trust him in the midst of that. And we, you know, yeah. 

DJ Heyward: [00:27:52] Yeah. I think most of us kind of fall into this camp where God, I know you can do it, but I don't think you're going to. I mean, I think that's something that I. I mean, I've journaled a lot, you know, in my personal time about that idea. Yeah. I know you can, but will you do it?

Like, I think a lot of us, if I'm being honest about myself, when I'm faced with these circumstances in my life, sometimes I do think like, no, like he just won't, he just won't. I don't know why he won't. He just won't and I think, uh, part of that is being okay. That he won't. Cause I think my, my, when I say like, well, he just won't, he just won't is, or dang It.

Like that's messed up that he won't. Yeah. And I think the challenge is to say, well, he didn't because he wasn't supposed to. And I am completely as okay with Him doing it and not doing it. That, that is, that is so easy to say. And so hard to do like to think about. That's where I need to be. Like, you know, even if.

You know, even, even if God let us burn in this furnace. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo. 

Jon Miller: [00:29:15] As soon 

as you started talking about this, I was like, that's exactly the verse. Like, you know, a king, we're not going to worship you because our God is able to save us from the burning fire. But even if he doesn't, we won't do it, he doesn't have to, we just know he can.

And they had such faith that they were willing to risk their entire lives. 

DJ Heyward: [00:29:36] And, and if you notice the response, because if you look at my response was, hey God, I don't, I, I don't know if I know that you can, but I don't know if you will. And the don't know if you will part is based out of fear. Their even if part is based out of the confidence they have in God, and it's not based in fear.

And so like, I think for me, I'm just really thinking out loud right now. It's just like, man, like how different is that like that I know that you can, and I know, I know that you can, and you could do it, but even if God, I'm confident in who you are and where I'm going to be on the other side of that, what would that be?

Um, you know, the extreme is death. Um, but I think for a lot of us, when it comes to Americans, it's like you said, our rights, it's our, it's our way of life. And being afraid that, uh, Christianity is taken out of, of schools and books and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, God's like, I created all this. So like, don't, don't worry about it, like trust in me and, and, uh, uh, be a part of me.

And even if whatever your fears happens, I'm with you. Yeah. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:48] Well that goes back to like, Jamie asks a question, like what casts out that fear and he just responded. It's that perfect love that God has for you. And that's, that's the challenge, right. Is leaning into that love and saying, all right. Yeah. You know, things aren't going, how I want them to go, or they're not panning out.

And, you know, even if I'm just going to trust that you've got this under control God and, uh, that's not easy, like that's a confession, like, yeah. I'm just saying that like, as a pastor, like. It's not always easy to, to lean into that. Um, it's definitely easy to get sideswiped and think about, oh, here's everything that's going wrong.

Um, but yeah, man, I was just encouraged by, by that and what he said. Um, but I don't know about you guys where you thought about that. 

DJ Heyward: [00:31:38] So I want to ask you, Jon, um, you know, it's been a little bit, since you had to process, you know, kind of the truth, telling that they were able to give you in like, Hey, like what.

Like, do you truly believe in God? What are some of the ways that you felt like since then that kind of helped prac maybe some practical wisdom? 

Jon Miller: [00:31:58] Yeah, I think the biggest thing, and like I said, it was kind of a, a milestone in my life talking to them, not necessarily that that conversation changed me completely if by any means, I don't think it.

It just made me start to think and to rethink some of the ways that I had been doing things and how I had been interacting with God. And so I started spending. I mean, it sounds really cliche. I would, as far as spending some more time with God, um, and just sitting and asking the kind of the two questions that Jamie said, and that's, what do you want me to know?

And then what do you want me to do instead of saying like, God, why don't you fix this situation? And why don't you give me this? And, uh, I mean, the list of things that is again, very cliche, but we do it. We do it every time when we pray, but he's still instead asking, you know, what do you want me to know?

About me. What's what, what do I need to confess to you? What do I actually believe? And then actually confessing those to God actually really helped me a ton and confessing like, God, I don't actually believe you have this handled. I'm realizing that I don't actually believe that. And confessing that to him.

Repenting and being like, God, show me a better way, you know, and trying to imagine him taking that and giving that over to him and what I found, even just giving those things over to God is it would be great for like a day. And I'd be like, oh man, I feel like this weight is lifted off my shoulders and then it come back and then I had to give it over again.

So what I found after that is, um, just this, there's a continued process of healing that God wants us to go through and finding our identities, confessing the things that we believe about Him, that aren't true. And, and asking Him, I mean, you might be listening right now and being like, I don't have any, you know, wrong beliefs about God.

I would challenge you that you do. I think we all do. Um, honestly, every human does because we're human and we're kinda messed up. So I would challenge you to ask God. What and be honest, and then spend actual time listening for something and impression, uh, um, uh, you know, images that come to mind, ask him, where do I act, where don't I trust you helped me to see that, where do I trust you in my life and help me to confess it.

And when you see it, it's going to be hard. Cause you gonna be like, oh, you know, I, you know, like I don't want to give that away. You know, it's it. I like that burden, you know, it's more comforting than trusting you and then you realize, oh, I actually don't trust God. Like, and then it's kind of a cycle and you're like, okay, I'm going to give it.

I'm going to give it to you. God, I'm going to repent. I'm going to give it him and confess it. You know, I don't trust you God to take care of my kids if I die. Oh, you know, it starts to feel a little better as you actually make that confession. Um, and then to do it over and over again, as it comes up again and it's continue to process, I think.

So often as Christians, we can be really set on those like miraculous moments in scripture where it's like, God's parting the Red Seas for, you know, Moses, why can't he do it for me and an instantaneous fix of the problem? Why can't he make an instantaneous fix for me? He can, it's a thing, but doesn't that, those, those,

parts of scripture where there's these massive miracles are an exception to the rule. That's why they're written in scripture. If they were normal, everything that wouldn't be written there, if they're normal. Uh, and so that's what God, I mean, God, doesn't always work that way and he can, he can do that.

But I think most of the time it's a process and we see that in like the life of Peter, for example, the most, one of the most wrong disciples there where he was wrong, wrong, wrong, over and over again. And man Jesus loved that guy. Jesus loved that guy and he kept he got Jesus used God used that guy to bring the gospel to people like me, the Gentiles, um, And it's because that Peter realized he was wrong for a moment and he confessed that and he went and yeah, I think he even confessed in front of Cornelius.

He's like, you know what? We don't, you know, think that you guys really deserve to know God, but God shown me that I was wrong, you know, like, Hmm. And, uh, yeah, so that's, I mean, that's some of it, I am definitely not totally there, but it definitely that conversation with them starting to confess it before God has set me on the right path to.

I guess trusting God more. Yeah. 

DJ Heyward: [00:36:23] Yeah. They talked about the idea of a confession, repentance and a transformation. Yeah. And I loved their description of what we tend to do is a confession. And like just saying it or saying, I'm sorry, confessing equal apologizing, repentance equals apologizing. And then we don't even worry about the transformation part.

Right. And so. And so I, I love how they kind of defined it if like confessing is just telling the truth. And, um, I think that could be so hard for us to tell the truth because we're afraid we're going to offend God in some weird way. And God's like, I already know the offence that you made. So how can you offend me if I, if I already know it and then being able to repent and say, um, I'm turning away from that.

Um, truth telling I'm turning away from that. And then I'm going to be transformed to do, to do something different. And the transformation is us living in our true identity. And I think that is a practice that what you're talking about, I say I needed to confess this. I need to tell the truth. God, I do not believe you.

I don't believe you. I don't think you can do this. And I think that is. Man. I don't think we've practiced that enough because we are human. Like God knows where we're frail, we're fragile and we're all over the place. And he knows that. And I think as people who follow him have to be able to engage with him and.

And be confident in him that no matter what we say to him, like, like he's, if we're telling the truth and we're coming to him in the confession and repentance, um, a humble place in, even if we're in a place of anger or, you know, maybe, you know, you listen to this podcast and you're in a place where you're incredibly hurt by you feel like God was supposed to do something for you, or you feel like.

 Like really angry at God that something didn't go your way or the tragedy that happened in your life. God is not afraid of any of that stuff. I just want you to tell the truth because when you come to him with exactly what you're feeling and who you are, even though he already knows that that's when your healing starts to begin, because you're starting to tap into the love that he is.

And that's, and that's where you meet him. You meet him in, in, in the truth and that's when you're able to repent, but you can't start the repent in the transformation until we're able to tell the truth. Yeah. And be able to practice that. When would that be? You read or you journal or however you do it, do you pray every morning?

Just start. Um, what's your kind of saying to start to do some inventory on, on yourself? Like what are the things that I need to know about myself that is just off? Like, okay, now then what do you want me to do with that? I think that that all goes. Goes right in line in that. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:39:03] Yeah. I don't know. We're like sitting here and I'm thinking just in this just came up kind of in my thoughts, uh, as we're talking, but it's kind of like, we, we put a line for God, right?

Like this is the Beyond The Lines podcast. And we're saying, God, like, I'm only gonna love you or trust you up to this point. And like, I can't, I can't trust that you're going to do something greater without, uh, you know, without my help or a little bit of my input or whatnot, but God's like, dude, I got this under control.

Like I can do this. I'm dunno I just came up and I'm like, that's a good, I think, reminder for us, like we are across this entire table and, uh, hopefully you too, even as you're listening, um, We're we're frail, like DJ said, it's our emotion sometimes control like, Hey, how much can I trust you? God? Or how much can I love you?

Um, we sometimes fail at asking that question of, Hey, what do you want me to do? Or, um, what was the other one? How, how can I, uh, 

Jon Miller: [00:40:00] What do you want me to do? And. Uh, what was the other one? 

DJ Heyward: [00:40:05] What do you want me to know? 

Jon Miller: [00:40:06] What did you want me to know? 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:40:08] Yeah, so we are bad at that clearly because we forget one of the questions.

Um, but then two it's like, or a third, I should say we, we struggle at confessing, like, or just recognizing kind of where we're falling short. 

Jon Miller: [00:40:21] And as I'm reflecting here, we've almost like there's certain traditions of Christianity in the US and I think I've been a part of them where it's almost, it's almost a sin

to admit that you're wrong. Or like, like we're, we're, we're convinced by certain speakers or voices in our lives, or even personalities out there who have said, like, if you doubt God, that's a sin. Or if you doubt God or you fear him, or you have a fear or anything, that's a sin. So therefore you, you almost get to this point where you're like, I can't, I can't let anybody know.

I can't let God know. I can't let God know that I doubt him. I can't let anybody them know that I fear. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:40:58] But God already knows. 

Jon Miller: [00:41:00] But like, We don't think about that. We don't think about that because afraid of like, oh no, it's a sin to doubt, oh, it's a sin to fear. It's a sin. And they were like, no, no, no, that's not a fear.

That's a, that's just a apprehension, you know, like, like trying to put different names on it and, and, and say, no, that's not a fear. Or that's not a doubt because that's a sin. I can't, you know, be so angry at me if I, and then let me just, if you're in that place, that's a belief about God. That you have that he'll be angry at you for confess confessing to him.

And I recommend confess that to him and be free of that because that's not the God that we follow. The God we follow is a loving God and he is so quick to forgive and so slow to anger. Um, he's really cool. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:41:46] I would agree with that. Yeah. DJ, you got any last thoughts as we close out this episode? 

DJ Heyward: [00:41:53] No, I think the, the ch I think this

podcasts from Jamie Winship. And I think we talked about today comes with a challenge. It comes, it comes with the challenge. So, um, it comes with the challenge of doing some inventory of ourselves. It comes with the challenge of maybe for the first time, some of us are able to tell the truth about what we're feeling in the circumstance that we're in, how we're feeling about God, how we're disappointed in God, and then coming to him with honesty and God.

What do you want me to know? And what do you want me to do? And I think that, that, that right there is a great challenge in, and I'm asking God, got, who do you call me to be? Who have you created me to be? And I'm angry. I'm upset. What do you want me to know about myself? What do you want me to know about this situation?

How do you want me to do respond and continue to prepare me? So I think that, I think this is a good challenge for us as we. As we're looking forward to break down lines and break down walls. 

Clayton Eddleman: [00:42:59] Definitely. And I mean, that's the goal too, right? Is we had this episode where we're recapping. The, the two great episodes that we had with Jamie and Donna.

And it's, we're saying, hey, you know, there's some things that we still gotta process. And hopefully, uh, you, as a, as a viewer, as a listener, a watcher, uh, you're, you're walking through those same steps with us of, you know, hey, where am I falling short? Maybe I need to start confessing. Or maybe I've got to share asking the right questions or trusting God to do stuff.

Um, but yeah, I dunno, those, those two episodes. I'm sure we have listened to them many times. I'm going to go back and listen to some more. Um, but I think the questions posed there are good ones and good challenges as well. So Jamie and Donna Winship, if you're listening or watching this, just want to say thank you so much for jumping on that podcast.

Those are really good. Um, Yeah. So we're going to close out this episode of the, Beyond The Lines Podcast. And we are from Central Christian Church, a church out in the Phoenix area of Arizona, and that we've got a few different campuses and we would love to connect with you. You can check us out at centralaz.com and we've got services that you can stream on the weekends, or you can come and join us in person, but we just strive to live out the idea of loving beyond. That's

the purpose of this podcast is we want to love beyond the lines we've created. And so we're not perfect. We don't profess that we are in any sense. And so I'm glad that you're here on this journey with us of saying, hey, what can I do to love beyond better and to learn where God is calling me and how he wants me to live.

So thank you so much for watching or listening, and we will catch you guys on the next episode