Where Did Racism Come From? | Dr. Jeff McGee | Beyond The Lines Ep. 11

God never intended for humans to be divided by race. Where did racism come from? Christians have participated in racism and we don't understand where it comes from. There is only one human race.

Join us this week on this episode of Beyond The Lines as we talk with special guest, Dr. Jeff McGee on his new book One Human Race.

For more from Dr. McGee visit https://www.drjeffmcgee.com/ or https://www.ccdynamics.org/

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

Transcript

Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:00] Well, welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast, uh, in a world filled with so much hate and division. We want to do something about that. So our goal is to treat all people with the dignity and respect that they deserve. And whether we realize it or not, sometimes we draw lines in the sand and say, I'm not going to love beyond this line or beyond this difference.

[00:00:20] So we want to address that. And today on our podcast, we have an author. We have a thought. And, uh, also a member of our church, Central Christian Church. And that is Dr. Jeff McGee and, uh, Dr. McGee. It's so good to have you with us today. How are you doing? 

[00:00:37] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:00:37] I'm doing fantastic. I'm really excited to be here with you guys.

[00:00:40] Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:40] That's awesome. Well, Hey, we were chatting a little bit about this just beforehand, but you've got a book that has recently coming out and, uh, it's a little bit, while we're going to be talking about today. One Human Race. Can you just fill us in on, on what it is and kind of where people can find. 

[00:00:57] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:00:57] Yeah.

[00:00:57] Yeah. So the book is just basically written to help people understand that we are one human race in God's eyes and, uh, you know, it's just a book to give people some insight into how do we build unity and collaboration within our church and within the Church? Uh, the big Church, the big C. And, uh, so I'm just really excited about the book.

[00:01:18] I've been hearing a lot of good things about it. I'm really excited about that. Uh, you never know if your book's good or not, but, uh, I've been getting a lot of great feedback from people all over the place. Um, but yeah, they can go to my, you can go to my website, uh, DrJeffMcGee.com and you'll see the book, the link there to purchase a book.

[00:01:36] So I'm really excited to get it into the hands of many people as, uh, I can. 

[00:01:41] Awesome. 

[00:01:41] Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:41] Well, very cool. I know you've got the, uh, the paper edition and also digital and Kindle. I was hoping, you know, there was an Audible where I just want to hear you narrate the book. Have you thought about that at all? 

[00:01:52] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:01:52] I've thought about that, but, uh, I've been advised not to do that.

[00:01:55] Okay. So, uh, but maybe one day. 

[00:01:58] Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:58] One day. All right. Well, Hey, um, so I just wanna, I just pretty much just have a conversation. Uh, you know, your book is very good, but I just want to start off from the basics. Kind of, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself, just your journey, and maybe a little bit about the work that you're doing, right now.

[00:02:16] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:17] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:02:17] So I was, um, born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and yes, I'm a huge Steelers fan. 

[00:02:25] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:25] That's tough for us Cardinals fans to hear. 

[00:02:27] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:02:27] Yeah. Yeah. I moved out here about eight years ago and I started attending Central, uh, probably about three or four years ago, I would say, uh, started attending Central and, you know, just did my finished my doctorate degree, uh, at NAU.

[00:02:44] And, um, when I got done with that or towards the tail end of that, just praying and trying to figure out what my next step is in life. And, um, kind of the goal was for me to, uh, work in higher ed. I wanted to become a college or a university professor, um, and teaching and organization. Uh, leadership, organizational, um, uh, change, uh, where my heart was, but, you know, God always has different plans for you.

[00:03:10] So just there were some circumstances through prayer and, uh, some things, uh, God really revealed to me this need, um, within a church, just educating people and just, how do we build it? And how do we start loving people? Um, so right now I do consulting work, um, across the country and different aspect of the world also.

[00:03:32] Um, and just teaching leaders, how to, uh, develop these organizational changes that, implementing policies that teach us how to love others, right. And create more equitable spaces, um, for, for all God's people. So I work in sectors we work in all sectors. Um, it's in the church education, higher ed and K to 12 businesses, nonprofits.

[00:03:56] Now we have a lot of clients in those different areas. So that's a little bit about what we do. Um, at the company.

[00:04:02] Yeah, well, 

[00:04:03] Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:03] it's really cool. And I know that's how I originally got connected with you. Um, is, you know, you came and spoke to our staff at a meeting. Yeah. About December of 2019, actually. And so that's where I first got to hear about the work that you do.

[00:04:17] And, uh, personally within my own heart was just blown away by, by what you shared, um, and kind of had my world rocked and whatnot. And, uh, you know, I, I think your work is, uh, it's really powerful and really important, especially in. Uh, time, like, man, if you look at the past year, everything has come to the forefront.

[00:04:37] Uh, you mentioned that in the introduction of your book or in the preface a little bit, you know, talking about George Floyd and, uh, it's just, I can't, I can't say, I mean, there's, there's no time like the present really. And, uh, so I just want to thank you and commend you for what you're doing. Um, I know too here, let me pull up some notes really quick.

[00:04:59] Uh, but you've got so in this book some amazing thoughts. And, uh, I circled this here, but you know, you you've got this, you know, you said the goal of this book is twofold first to provide readers with a deeper understanding of culture, using race as a model to illustrate how human theories and practices have caused division within the body of Christ.

[00:05:20] And second, to introduce a framework for development. Uh, biblically based cross-cultural unity and collaboration based on the data collected through personal experiences, research stories, church parishioners, and non church people, church and nonprofits, leadership teams, board members, and deacons. Um, That's a lot right there.

[00:05:40] Uh, but I just kinda want to break it down, looking at that, that first bit to provide readers a deeper understanding of culture, uh, re or in using race as a model to illustrate these human theories. Um, just walk us through a little bit, some of the, the findings that you've had just in that and what you found. 

[00:06:00] Yeah.

[00:06:01] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:06:01] So, um, one of the things, and I'll start with this. When we talk about race and we talk about trying to understand racism and things like that. One of the big questions I asked me people is where did you learn about race? Um, where did you learn about racism? And I'm really intrigued by their responses. If like me and like you, we've not been taught about race through some type of educational format.

[00:06:29] We've heard it from social media. Maybe our family taught us. Um, maybe we watch the news or read in the newspaper. So we don't really have this full understanding of what race is from a historical component. Um, and so through a lot of the research was conducted from doing one-on-one interviews with people, um, focus groups, Um, doing some observations and different settings and with the church folks and people that aren't in the church and then throughout different sectors.

[00:07:03] So a lot of this research was done for I've done it for years because I wanted to really establish a strong, foundational understanding of how we can learn something different. How people do learn. Um, and so I feel it was important before I started laying out a framework to understand how to make changes. We have to first understand what the information is and have a really strong foundation of what race is.

[00:07:30] And especially from a, um, a biblical perspective. So I wanted to really lay that out and give people this understanding before we moved into how we start making these changes. 

[00:07:42] Clayton Eddleman: [00:07:42] Yeah, no, that's good. And I know one of the things that you bring up too is, um, you know, you, you share scripture obviously, and you talk about the idea of, Hey, we're all from, from Adam.

[00:07:52] And you know, you look at Genesis and you, you bring up some scripture from Acts and, uh, you bring up this, this word that some people might not be familiar with. Uh, just melanin and, uh, just how we've got, uh, People have different amounts of melanin and that's really, um, just what, uh, determines your skin color or how dark your skin is.

[00:08:13] Um, and I thought that that was, uh, a really helpful explanation, uh, cause that's something, you know, you don't, you don't hear growing up, you don't learn. Um, and so I appreciated that. 

[00:08:28] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:08:28] Yeah. And that's when I read, when I first came across today, it kind of blew my mind too. Um, cause I liked the look of the simplicity of things and we, and I've mentioned it in the book.

[00:08:39] We, we really have established these rules about different racial groups simply because of an amount of melanin in their skin. Which is something we cannot control. Like you're born this place, right. You're born is like, this is the way God made you, but yet God made you one way. And then people look at you and then judge you based on way God made you.

[00:08:59] Um, and I think that's just something that we really need to have really meditate on. Think about as we are trying to build unity. 

[00:09:05] Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:05] No, totally, totally. And, uh, I, I liked what you said here too. Just, kind of going from that and you just wrote building relationships across races is a lot easier when we first understand ourselves before we begin to understand others.

[00:09:22] And I think that's part, yeah. Just understanding yourself, like, Hey, this is the way God made me, you know, one way or the other, whether, uh, I'm I'm lighter skinned or darker skin. And I think that just helps us kind of walk through that process. So, uh, in your book, Dr. McGee, you talk about, um, just how there was a period, uh, of your own faith and your own life.

[00:09:44] Where, uh, you took a step back from Christianity, your relationship with Christ. Um, and then you, you eventually kind of made that swing back. Can you just walk us through what led to, um, the, I would say, you know, almost a prodigal son moment of walking away and then coming back and being, you know, brought into the fold of, of, of Christianity.

[00:10:08] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:10:08] Yeah. Um, yeah, so I, I walked away from Christianity, probably in my late teens, I would say, um, maybe my junior, senior year in high school. Um, I was raised in the church and, um, I was raised in, in the church I was raised in, was really strict. Um, uh, on the roles and different things. And so I, I don't want to attribute that to me leaving the church, but I know that had a part of it.

[00:10:36] It was a part of it. Um, so it would just be experiencing the world, just experiencing something other than church. Um, so I walked away from the church for many years. Um, well, over a decade, I would say I walk away from church. Um, and just through that, you know, I, I could looking back on it. I see how God still had his hand on me, even though I walked away from the church and I came back to the God in 2007.

[00:11:05] Yeah, there was some experiences and circumstances where it led to me and, uh, my son at that time. Well, not, not that time, but me and my son at that time were homeless um, back in 2007 and we in not too many people know that, but, uh, I guess everyone of them, I know that now, but yeah, we were homeless back in 2007. Um, the market had crashed, um, I lost everything, my house, my car, everything, my job.

[00:11:33] Um, and I was a single parent at that time. And just trying to find, figure out my next step in life. And around that time, when I came back to the Lord and God just started pieceing my life back together again. Um, and I've been serving God ever since 2007. Uh, and it's just been an incredible journey, um, uh, during that time.

[00:11:54] So that's a little bit about my history of walking away and coming here back on. I don't want to get in too much detail, but you know, I've learned a lot of things out there in the world and I learned how much hate is out there in the world. Um, just from walking away. And, uh, some of those experiences I do use.

[00:12:12] And currently in my, my, my ministry and my work now. Um, and I use a lot of those experiences that inform, uh, some of the work that I do. 

[00:12:21] Clayton Eddleman: [00:12:21] So, yeah. Wow. You know, I had no clue, uh, just even what you shared there, you know, that's new information, uh, for me too. So thank you for sharing that. Uh, talking a little bit about those experiences, some of them that you had gone through.

[00:12:34] Um, are there any stories that stick out in your mind? Hey, this is where, you know, I really experienced or went through, uh, something that, that was racist in nature. And, um, you know, I share a little bit about that because, uh, I think that's important to hear that. 

[00:12:52] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:12:52] Yeah. And I, and before I share that I wanna share this, you know, Uh, a part of what's going on right now, when we talk about race and understanding race is people tend to learn about race and racism from sources other than people that have experienced it.

[00:13:10] Um, so when I talk about my experiences raised, I'm not making these things up, things that really happen and, um, I've, I've experienced racism. During my entire life. Um, and I probably will continue to experience racism until the day God calls me home. Um, but I remember there's things that I remember. And it's funny because you know, a couple of months ago after my mom read my book and we were just talking about some things, I, I I've experienced racism.

[00:13:41] She honestly started reminding me of some other things that happened that just totally forgot about. So there's things that I don't even remember that happened. Um, but a couple that come to mind. I remember as a kid, I remember we lived in a predominantly white neighborhood and I remember my, my brother and I were out riding our bikes.

[00:14:02] We were probably 10, 11 years old. And I remember being pulled over by the police while we were, we were actually on the street. We living on and I remember being pulled over by the police. And the police officer were questioning us and asking us why we were in this neighborhood. We were actually living on the street.

[00:14:20] Uh, and I remember getting pulled over at that time. I didn't know what was happening. I just thought they would just want him to know. Right. So it wasn't until I went home and told my parents, and I don't remember the responses, but I remember my mom would just broke down and, uh, and so I feel, I didn't know what was going on, but as I grew older and I'll put in another experience happened when I got pulled over by the police at, um, I was with my brother and a couple of my cousins.

[00:14:47] We were just driving home. It's probably about 11 o'clock in the evening at night. Um, and we were coming home and I remember getting pulled over and there was probably, I would say 10 police cars pulled us over at gunpoint, made us get out the car. Um, handcuffed us, put us against the car, searched the car.

[00:15:08] Um, we asked, I asked what we were being pulled over for. They said you, you were speeding. Um, which I know we weren't, because I knew the neighborhood I was driving. So I knew I wasn't speeding. Um, but after that was done, they didn't even give me a  ticket. They just say, okay, goodbye. You can go. They uncuffed us and took us away.

[00:15:28] And that was a really traumatic experience for me. Um, and that happened to me and I was thinking another one happened. Oh, Picking something from my memory of something. One happened here in, uh, in Arizona here. And I was at, uh, to the Tempe Marketplace and I was walking with a friend of mine at that time and she was a white female and we went into a store and I remember it was a jewelry store we went into and I remember

[00:15:58] her and I went our separate ways, but I noticed the employees started following me. They weren't following her at all. A matter of fact, I, if I remember correctly, she was actually digging in her purse near the jewelry counter, which later on, I told her, you know how I would never do something like that because if I'm digging in my pockets or something to jewelry counter, I know I'm going to be suspected of something.

[00:16:22] Right. Yeah. So I do remember that happening, uh, right here in Tempe, but there's other things that happen here in Arizona, too, but those are just some of the experiences of many, um, that where I've experienced some type of racial profiling or racism. Um, that's really impacted my life and it actually has caused some trauma in my life that that's still, I'm still trying to deal with.

[00:16:48] So, um, that's just a little bit about the personal experiences that I've had. 

[00:16:54] Clayton Eddleman: [00:16:54] Yeah. And I'm sorry to hear that. I really am. I think what it, it causes me to think about is, uh, is how can I check biases within myself? And I think anybody you talk to has bias, whether they realize it or not, what is some of the work you've found or uncovered and how we are even just biblically.

[00:17:16] How can we challenge ourselves to just reflect, look at ourselves and say, Hey, why am I thinking this? Or how does God actually want me to respond to this? What do you, what do you think about that? 

[00:17:26] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:17:26] Yeah, I, I think, you know, everything, in my opinion, we talk about relations. Everything's relational, right? And, and, and at Central, I love, you know, you have that sign right behind, you were made for more.

[00:17:38] And I just think, you know, it, it, it, it's just as simple as just sitting down with someone and talking to them, that's different than you, um, within having a biblical understanding that we're all God's children. Uh, and, and having empathy for one another. Talk about empathy just briefly before, but I think empathy is, is huge.

[00:17:59] I've met some great folks at Central just by going out and having a coffee meeting and sharing my story and them sharing their story. And I've developed some great friendships with people at, at Central that are different than me, um, that I, I truly value these friendships and my closest friends go that Central right now.

[00:18:18] Um, because we have been able just to sit down and break bread together and just develop an understanding and love for one another and know that we're all in God's kingdom. Um, and, but the world is constantly trying to pull us apart. And what I've seen is I, and I don't know if I'm mentioned in the book or not, but what I've seen is the world's actually crept into the church.

[00:18:40] And right now, it's hard to tell the difference between the church and the world, because we're all acting insane. Um, and so this is where we need to separate ourselves, you know, and just, just start being different. And that just comes from understanding, reading our work, letting the Holy Spirit work in us.

[00:18:59] And simply in a scripture, I quote a million times it's just loving our neighbor, just loving other people. That's that's all it is when I say other people would just someone that's not you just loving everybody, you know, um, we can just simply do that. We can just start building better relationships, a better society, um, and a better community within the church.

[00:19:21] Clayton Eddleman: [00:19:21] Yeah. You know, and I think what you said, you know, love your neighbor, you write it in the book and, uh, you know, as followers of Christ, hopefully we know that. That's the second commandment, right? Like Jesus says, love God, you know, uh, put him first, but the second is to love your neighbor. And I remember back when you talk to our, our staff, uh, in December, 2019, you, you talked about this, um, not phenomenon, but just kind of the culture that was set up around.

[00:19:49] Um, uh, I can't remember the proper word, but just a, the railroad tracks and how that distinguished between, um, certain, certain neighborhoods, whether, Hey, this is a white neighborhood, or this is a black neighborhood. And that really got me to think and has even caused my wife and I to have a lot of conversations of, Hey, like we get to choose who our neighbors are to some degree, you know, we get to choose where we want to live, you know, uh, but we don't always choose who's in the apartment or the house next door.

[00:20:17] Right at the same time, uh, you know, we've got this call to, to love whoever, uh, is near us. And so my question would be for those of us who, um, want to start, maybe loving our neighbors more, or just learn more about our neighbors. I know you talk about empathy and hearing stories. Where do we begin? Like, how do we start.

[00:20:42] Yeah. So, 

[00:20:43] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:20:43] so that goes towards kind of the second part of the book where I talk about the framework of where do we start, right. So the first part talks about understanding yourself, understanding your biases, understanding your rural view, understanding how you grew up, and then more importantly, how did you learn

[00:21:00] about how did you learn this information? How did you learn about race? How'd you learn about gender? Um, how did you learn about different ethnicities or nationalities and, uh, where would you learn about immigration? Right. So where did you learn these things from? And once we start questioning that, we can start really analyzing where we told the truth.

[00:21:22] Right. And one of the things I like to bring up is, you know, uh, Columbus day, for example, I remember growing up, you know, in elementary school, probably like you, we learned a Columbus founded America, but we now know that that's not true. And I've always questioned that you can be for stern, starting to become kind of a national thing is my question was always how can you find something that wasn't lost?

[00:21:46] Right. There was already people here. So how can you find something? Right. Um, so think about when you lose your keys, right? You find your keys, but you know what I mean? So it's just, it was just something that always triggered my mind. We learn about ourselves and we start learning new information. Um, and then as we moved through the model, you know, we're just learning about different cultures, learning about different people groups.

[00:22:12] And one of the things that I really, really like about, um, the people that I've met with that Central is they, my close friends have had the heart, I would say, to say, Hey, let me learn. Let me lean in. And learn something new. So it's having that desire to learn something new and saying, I don't know at all.

[00:22:35] And that's kind of the attitude that God wants us to have, right? Because once we started becoming a know it all, and we're pushing God to the side and saying, don't, don't worry about it. I got this. Right. But having the mindset, having an open mindset to say, Hey, I need to learn something new and it might shake me up at my core

[00:22:53] but if I'm learning something new is going to give us that wisdom that we need as we're moving forward and trying to just build better in unity and build friendships and relationships with people that are different than us. 

[00:23:04] Clayton Eddleman: [00:23:04] Man. That's all so good. Um, you know, I think about stuff that I've learned that that's new in reading your book.

[00:23:12] I think, you know, you explained it a little bit, but I learned about the difference of race, ethnicity, and culture and how you. Talk about these. Could you just define those for our listeners or viewers really quick? So they just have an idea of what we're talking about. 

[00:23:27] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:23:27] Yeah. So, and so one of the things were race, um, and then specific, I'd talk about race and the concept of race, which is, which is two different things.

[00:23:38] Um, ethnicity is. Basically what you can create for yourself. So basically, uh, ethnicity is I'm a Christian as a part of my ethnic, you know, makeup. I'm a Christian, I'm a believer. I have that choice, right? That's a choice of mine. Race is not my choice. And then the concept of race that I talk about in the book is different than race.

[00:24:03] The race is. The way we were created. We're human, we're all human races, whether you're black, white, brown, yellow, red, it doesn't matter part of the human race. The concept of race is actually was developed by man. What do I mean by that is man had to give a meaning to the color of people's skin. So white means this. Black means this. Brown means this. Red and yellow  mean means this.

[00:24:31] So that's where man went wrong. We had to give an identity meaning to what a race is and in the bulk, and then there's other literature out there that really goes deep into how that happened. And I go talk about how it happened here within the understanding of the United States, um, and how the concept of race was developed through law.

[00:24:56] Through, um, the courts through, um, different policies that were implemented to create this concept of race. So, um, that's the difference between those concepts? 

[00:25:09] Clayton Eddleman: [00:25:09] Yeah. Well, that's good. I know that goes back to the title too, even in what you said and how you define it, you know, we're saying, Hey, there's one human race.

[00:25:17] The only difference is how much melanin you have in your, in your skin. And, um, and what. But, uh, you know, you talk about this idea of embracing cross-cultural collaboration. You, you alluded to it earlier, um, some of the different parts or whatnot. Um, but from what I gather, there's five parts, correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:25:37] Uh, I'll read them really quick, just understanding yourself. So having that time for self-reflection, uh, number two, learning it all over again. Uh, number three is relating through trust. Four is advocating for a cause and five. Is participating through unity. What would you say in what you've found or talked with people?

[00:25:57] What's the, what's the hardest one for people to kind of approach or work through? 

[00:26:03] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:26:03] You know, that, that's a good question. I look, the hardest part for people is that first stage, the understanding stage, um, we live in a society now that, and I think it was very apparent, very apparent. Our recent political election where we've had, we had two sides that were just polar opposites, but people didn't listen to one another because they were so ingrained in their beliefs, um, whether right or wrong, it doesn't matter.

[00:26:39] They were so ingrained their belief that they were closed off to listening to the other side. Um, And I'm not saying it had to change their mind, but people wouldn't even listen to other people. And that was, that just really shows how people are so ingrained and entrenched and what they believe to be true.

[00:26:58] That they're not open enough to listen to stories, listen to how someone's feeling, listen to truth. Um, I recently, I just did a, um, a training. Uh, with a couple of days ago. And I was talking to a group on something that I heard on TV, where someone was arguing, uh, this, the idea of white privilege. And, and this person was arguing white privilege and saying, I don't have white privilege.

[00:27:25] I earned everything that I have. And then they're just going on and on. And I had to stop and I had to reflect on that they were arguing something and they didn't even have the true meaning. So they didn't even understand what white privilege was. So they're arguing about something that wasn't even relevant.

[00:27:43] Um, and that just showed me that people get entrenched into their beliefs. And it's hard to move people out out of the back. Just saying open up your mind, let's learn something new. So that first stage we can get past that first stage. Then everything else will just fall into place. But when it, another thing, a point about these five stages that we have to understand it, this is a lifelong journey, right?

[00:28:09] I'm walking with people just like walking with God is a lifelong journey. It's just not a one-time thing. You do it. And you're done. Um, so that's another thing that people are understanding and leaning into and saying, Hey, I'm being intentional about learning. I mean, intentional advocating, I'm being intentional about unity.

[00:28:29] Um, so that's something, I, I, the two things I would stay or really stand out about this model. 

[00:28:35] Clayton Eddleman: [00:28:35] Yeah, yeah. No, that, I mean, that's just kind of blows my mind even. You're just sharing that story of someone saying like, you know, no, I earned everything I have, you know, I don't, I don't have this thing called white privlege 

[00:28:47] uh, and you talk about that in your book a little bit, you know, the idea of earned privilege, um, and, uh, I'm drawing a blank on the exact wording. Um, but I thought that was really eye-opening. And so this is what I would challenge. And I say this as somebody who is, who is clearly white, um, how can, and this may be more of a question for me, but like, uh, how can people who, who look like me who were probably, uh, brought up like me, how do we use.

[00:29:16] You know, just the color of our skin to, to work towards unity and to work towards this cross-cultural, uh, collaboration like you talk about. 

[00:29:26] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:29:26] Yeah, that's a good question. Um, because I think where people need to do, um, and I would just say for all colors, but it, it just, and I said this before, it's just sitting down at the table and being open to learning and understanding someone else's perspective.

[00:29:43] And I feel like. And I worked with a lot of groups who are mostly white and I, and I tell people, you have to start opening your mind to saying, okay, things are different now. It's not what it used to be. Our communities are more diverse. Our churches are more diverse. Our workforce is becoming more diverse.

[00:30:04] Um, and I'm not just talking racial, right? There's gender and ethnicity and different other cult, different cultures. We're becoming a more diverse society. And if we were holding on to old traditional thinking, we're not able to move forward. So, and I tell people all the time, a good friend of mine said to me, you know, I will, can I get rid of my privilege?

[00:30:27] And I told him, don't get rid of it. Use your privilege to start bringing unity. Right. Start talking to people that look like you about some of these issues about what's going on. Because they are able to get into spaces that I can't get into right now. And I've learned that, uh, throughout the years that, um, and I said, someone told me even with a doctorate degree, I still can't get into certain spaces because of the color of my skin.

[00:30:56] And they told me that that really hit me like a ton of bricks, because it's actually true. So I would say people that have privilege and it's not just white privilege, right? There's socioeconomic privilege, right. It's privilege of where you lived. Um, there's a gender privilege. Um, so there's different types of privilege to use that privilege, to have conversations with people like you on how to start inviting other people that are different into these spaces to have these conversations.

[00:31:25] So that's what I would challenge. Um, you know, people that have this privilege.

[00:31:30]Clayton Eddleman: [00:31:30] That's. Yeah, I think that nails, nails it right on the head. Um, because, you know, as I've just thought, uh, and, and for me, you know, my talking point that I always go back to is that first time I heard you back in December, 2019. Uh, and I think that's something that, that has really resonated with me since then is, uh, you know, like you said, can't change who you are, you know, you're born the way you are.

[00:31:53] God gave you what you are. So how do you then utilize that situation for the very best, uh, that you can and, and whatnot. And so kind of going with that, you know, utilizing your situation, jumping into things, um, how do we get involved? Maybe it's a little bit easier. Yeah. Uh, coming from a church background where, you know, obviously this is our conversation here is happening through Central and it's easy to get involved, but maybe you don't work in a church.

[00:32:25] You, uh, work in, in the secular environment, you know, business or schools, or what have you, how would you encourage somebody who's in a situation like that to just get involved. 

[00:32:36] Yeah, I, 

[00:32:36] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:32:36] and I, so that's a good question because when you ask, when you say that question, I'm thinking about, you know, the advocacy stage in, in this model.

[00:32:44] Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm a firm believer. It doesn't matter what sector you work in that God has given us all a purpose. Um, and we need to find our purpose, align our purpose with God, and we can make an impact in whatever sector we work. Again, it goes back to loving people, loving God first, but then loving people.

[00:33:07] And if you're passionate about whatever it is, you're going to pour your resources into it, whether it's your money, whether it's your time. Um, and, uh, the pastor just this past Sunday and the message talk about, you know, I like giving and it was more about more than money, right? It just wasn't about money.

[00:33:28] It's about your time, your resources. And just giving to people and purposes that are different than you. So people that want to dive into specifically racial reconciliation and building racial unity, whether in the church or in their work space. Again, I started having the conversations with people that are like you and people that are not like you start finding those barriers that are causing,

[00:33:57] these conversations not to happen and start working towards rectifying these barriers, um, and breaking down these barriers that that's what people can start doing. Start challenging your leadership saying, and just ask them, what are you doing to build better racial unity within our organization. Um, and to start asking these questions and challenging people and talking to leaders and talking to different people too many times, we get stuck in our bubble.

[00:34:26] And we don't want to get out of our bubble, but as I go back to where they said, right behind you, we are made for more, right. We're not made just to sit in our bubble and be comfortable. We're made, we're made for discomfort. You know? Um, I think about, you know, Paul in the Bible, Paul didn't work in within the framework of being comfortable, right?

[00:34:50] Paul worked in the framework of doing God's work, doing. The, you know, even if it meant going to prison, Paul win, even if it meant getting beat, Paul did it. Right. So we had to have that mindset that we have to step out into our discomfort and get rid of our comfort. And that's one thing I'd figured, and I don't want to go down a rabbit trail, but that's the one thing I think this pandemic has really showed me personally, that we were comfortable just being, doing our normal.

[00:35:24] But the pandemic causes us to do things that weren't normal to us. Right. All of us had to do something different. Yeah. And I think because of that pandemic, it really showed me personally that there is value in discomfort. You find new things in discomfort, you find new relationships and discomfort. Um, and I think that's what we need to start leaning into.

[00:35:48] Instead of operating in comfort, let's operate in discomfort and that's where God can do some marvelous things. 

[00:35:54] Amen to 

[00:35:54] Clayton Eddleman: [00:35:54] that. I mean, even just talking about comfort, I think of the easiest analogy for me is just working out or, you know, you train and, uh, it doesn't feel good. Right? I mean, you're sore. You're, you're hurting your muscles.

[00:36:09] You're ripping. Essentially just to build them up and make them stronger. And if anything, you know, the past year has taught us that there's a lot of discomfort and, uh, there's a lot that we can learn and grow from it. And, you know, you don't get to the good times without going through some of the hard times as well.

[00:36:25] Um, want to change gears just a little bit here? I'm thinking, you know, uh, Jonathan, my co-host who is on episodes with us, um, you know, young father, uh, he's got kids and I'm hoping someday to have kids of my own. And how do you, how would you just go about to explain the idea of race. To like a five-year-old um, cause you know, we talk about learned behaviors and we S we sometimes say the things we do or act the way we do, because we learned them.

[00:36:56] Uh, and sometimes that's positive and sometimes it's negative, but how would we just go about and explain the idea of one human race in the simplest of terms for a child. 

[00:37:07] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:37:07] For a child? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, um, It's one of the things and I get, I get asked that question sometimes by parents.

[00:37:15] Um, and one of the things I say is, you know, what are you doing as a parent to be intentional, intentional about having your child interact with kids that aren't like them? Um, again, whether it's racial or socioeconomic, um, whatever the difference is, where did you doing to be more intentional about that?

[00:37:36] If you're raising your kids, in a bubble you're going to get stuck. They're going to get stuck in that bubble and believe that this bubble is actually true, but this is the reality. This is the way things should be. What if you're giving your kids these experiences with different cultures at a young age, the kid's going to start naturally,

[00:37:57] um, Start understanding, you know that yes, I might be different than this person, but I can still play with this kid. Right. We've seen all these images of the five-year-old or maybe knowing that of the black and white you, they were running toward each other on each other, a huge hug. Right? Right. So those kids don't see race.

[00:38:17] They don't see color. They just see there's another kid I can play with. But it starts helping the kid understand that, you know, you can play with kids that are different than you. So as they're growing up, they're building relationships with kids and, you know, teenagers into adult here that are different than them. I talked to a guy, um, in Florida and he was telling me he was sharing his story with me and say, you know, he grew up in San Francisco and moved to Florida.

[00:38:45] Um, but he's in room in San Francisco. He grew up in a very diverse community. This was a, he was a white, he's a white guy. He's I grew up in a very diverse first community. So to me, this is the way things are, right. He said, when we moved to Florida, um, he moved to a community that was just like him. And he saw racism for the first time to this degree.

[00:39:08] Um, and when he moved to the city in Florida and he was just saying that, you know, as a kid, his understanding was. Everyone's the same. It doesn't matter what your skin color is. Everyone's the same. But so the answer, your question and get back to your question. It's parents just need to expose their kids and building awareness within our kids, with people from different cultures and be intentional about it.

[00:39:33] Whether it's at the church, whether it's at a community park or whatever, it is just start being intentional about building relationships with kids and then with their parents that are different than you. And that's how. 

[00:39:46] Clayton Eddleman: [00:39:46] Yeah. Well, I think that's, uh, talking about experience. I mean, you're sharing about your friend's experience going from San Francisco to, um, to Florida.

[00:39:56] And before I came to Central, I was in the bay area in Silicon valley. Yeah. Yeah, I would just experience culture in such a different way. Within my apartment complex alone, I'd be walking down and just the foods I could smell the kids I could see playing on playgrounds. Um, and I'd say it was very different from the suburban white neighborhood I grew up in, in Phoenix.

[00:40:19] And I think that is such a good point. That experience can sometimes be, uh, the best of teachers when it comes to, uh, just putting yourself, uh, into, into areas where you can learn. Um, and I would say, you know, with experience, I think food is another way where you can read. Get outside of your comfort zone and, uh, and just learn more about others.

[00:40:43] I just remember growing up and going to this Euro restaurant and, uh, kind of having Mediterranean food, which, you know, 10 year old me is like, it's not a cheeseburger, it's not chicken fingers. Like, what am I doing with this? Um, but it was those experiences that go into that restaurant, meeting the family that owned it and then just becoming regulars and friends.

[00:41:03] Stuff like that is like, I think great. And can push you outside of your comfort zone. 

[00:41:09] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:41:09] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. 

[00:41:12] Clayton Eddleman: [00:41:12] You got any local restaurants here in, uh, in Phoenix that you think are like your top, top go tos? 

[00:41:19] You know 

[00:41:19] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:41:19] what I there's some, yeah, there's some I like Carolinas is done in Phoenix.

[00:41:24] I don't know if you've been there. Before as an awesome Mexican restaurant. 

[00:41:28] Clayton Eddleman: [00:41:28] I love Carolinas. I've got one not far from where I live, so that's a good one. 

[00:41:33] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:41:33] That's when I really, really like. 

[00:41:35] Clayton Eddleman: [00:41:35] Well, very cool. Very cool. So, Dr. McGee, uh, before we close our time here together, uh, could you just explain, why does it matter?

[00:41:45] You know, why does this conversation matter? Why does the work that you do and the topics that you research and write and talk about? Why is it important? 

[00:41:55] Yeah, I 

[00:41:55] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:41:55] think the most important thing and I'll I'll reference, I can't remember top of my head. It wasn't John, uh, topic, John or the book of John chapter seven or 17.

[00:42:05] I can't remember top of my head when Jesus was praying. Um, and it's actually the longest prayer that Jesus prayed. And in that prayer, Jesus said something that was really transformative for me in my work. Jesus prayed and said. God, I want them and I'm paraphrasing God. I want them to be united as we are  united.

[00:42:28] And his reason was I wanted them to be united, so they can be an example to the world. And when I reflected and meditated on that, that hit me really hard. The church and our unity is an example to the world. So the question, if the church looks like a world and acts like the world, how are we going to get the world to know Jesus?

[00:42:59] And we have to have, the church has to get to this place of unity. The churches is over 2000 years old and we're still fighting cultural and ethnic and racial issues. 2000. It dates back to the Bible, to the book of Acts when we're having problems. And we're still to over 2000 years later, we still cannot get this figured out because we always want to separate people.

[00:43:32] So my work and what I do and I, and my passion and my purpose in life is educating people on how we build unity. Again, not just racial unity. Christian unity do use this divided us in two categories. You're either in the kingdom or you're not, he didn't say on your aim, the kingdom. And then now there's the subcategories.

[00:43:56] He said, you're a Christian or not. He is a Christian, but in the kingdom. Well, you're not. Yeah. So what I believe and I'm working extremely hard for, and I'll continue to work extremely hard towards is helping people understand that we are all one. We are one body in and of Christ. It doesn't matter what you look like.

[00:44:19] It doesn't matter your gender where you were born, how much money you have or don't have, if you accepted Jesus as your personal savior, you are a believer in Christ. You're united with your other brothers and sisters. And that's as simple as that as it is. So that's where my work starts. And that's where it's going to end with this message.

[00:44:42] Clayton Eddleman: [00:44:42] Amen to that. Like, it's so good. And you're, you're totally right. You know, this, this isn't a problem. It's not a new problem that we're facing. It's, it's something that has happened in the early church. Uh, you mentioned Acts, I even think of, you know, Romans and Paul's talking to them like, Hey, like the Gentiles and the Jews and the Romans.

[00:45:00] No, one's getting along. And, uh, and. It's not something that unfortunately is going to go away overnight. And, you know, I think as we continue to work as voices like yours are heard and continue, uh, to share the message that you're sharing, uh, the hope and promise of what Jesus promises, uh, will come day by day or day by day.

[00:45:23] So I appreciate you. Thankful for you. I'm glad you're part of, uh, Central and just our community and all the work you're doing. Where can people, as we close, where can people find you? Do you have Twitter, social media website? How can people continue to hear about the work you're doing and just learn?

[00:45:43] Dr. Jeff McGee: [00:45:43] Yeah. So, um, I have two websites, but the main website you can go to is, uh,drjeffmcgee.com. Um, my company's website is cross uh, sorry. CCDynamics.org is the company website, but my personal website is Jeff McGee, drjeffmcgee.com. And on that site, you can connect with me on social media. You can send me an email.

[00:46:04] Um, my book is on my personal. Website drjeffmcgee.com website. And if people just want to talk or I extend an invitation to go out and grab a coffee with anyone who just wants to learn more and just talk, build a relationship. I'm not, I love doing that. So just shoot me an email. We'll schedule a coffee meeting and we'll we'll head out and start the conversation.

[00:46:26] Awesome. 

[00:46:27] Clayton Eddleman: [00:46:27] Well, Hey, thank you so much for joining us. Um, this, uh, this episode of Beyond The Lines Podcast and to those who are either watching us on YouTube or listening to us in some other fashion, uh, just want to say thank you to you as well. We record here out of Central Christian Church. Uh, we're in the greater Phoenix area and we've got a few different campuses, but you know, we believe our cause our just cause is to love

[00:46:51] beyond. So we want to love beyond the lines on this podcast. And if you would like to learn more about us, maybe join us in person for services, or just hear more about what we're here more about what we are about. You can join us on centralaz.com, uh, beyond that. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you guys later.