Poverty of Perspective | Beyond The Lines Ep. 12

What does it mean to have a poverty of perspective? Join us this week on the Beyond The Lines Podcast as hosts Jonathan Miller and Clayton Eddleman dive deeper into past episodes with Dr. Jeff McGee and Diana Oestreich.

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g 

EPISODES
Dr. Jeff McGee: https://youtu.be/NwDEfOKMXzM
Diana Oestreich: https://youtu.be/Hfx57Bfhubc

BOOKS:
One Human Race by Dr. Jeff McGee: https://www.drjeffmcgee.com/onehumanracebook
Waging Peace by Diana Oestreich: https://www.dianaoestreich.com/waging-peace

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Transcript

Jon Miller: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. In the world filled with so much division. We want to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw on the sand, that where we just feel like that's where our limit is. We can't listen past that line. We can't love past that line. We can't even understand somebody who's on the other side of the line, but our goal with this podcast is to listen to all people with the dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree with them.

[00:00:21] My name is Jonathan Miller, and today I have Clayton Edelman with me here on the podcast. 

[00:00:25] Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:25] Good to be here with everyone digitally, however you're viewing or listening to this. 

[00:00:29] Jon Miller: [00:00:29] Yeah. Yeah. And welcome everybody who's listening. Today we're going to be recapping a couple amazing guests that we've had on the podcast.

[00:00:37] These last couple of weeks, we have Dr. Jeff McGee who came and talked with us that just recently released and also Diana Oestreich and man, what a bunch of wisdom indeed. To listen to. I mean, I was just absolutely honored to be in the same room with Diana Oestreich, and I think he probably felt the same way with Dr.

[00:00:55] McGee. 

[00:00:55] Clayton Eddleman: [00:00:55] Yeah. I consider about ourselves, like you, me and DJ, pretty lucky that we get to like, sit down and have these conversations with these people just in that kind of that regard or that manner. So I I'm definitely blessed in that sense to be hanging out with them. 

[00:01:09] Jon Miller: [00:01:09] Yeah. And getting to learn so much.

[00:01:11] Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:11] Yeah. 

[00:01:12] Jon Miller: [00:01:12] So what we do with, with these little recap, well, first off, how's your summer going before I just dive in. And sometimes I just dive right into things and like have a little personal element here. How's your summer going? 

[00:01:23] Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:23] It's been good. It's been, um, a lot of fun. Not really enjoying the heat of Arizona, like probably most of us aren't, um, but I've had some time to get away and relax.

[00:01:33] So it's been fun. Like, you know, listen to the podcast, we'll go on on some trips or whatnot. So that's been good, but, uh, yeah, excited for all that's to come kind of coming up here for the fall and the winter. 

[00:01:43] Jon Miller: [00:01:43] How do you, how do you feel about listening to yourself on, on a podcast? 

[00:01:47] Clayton Eddleman: [00:01:47] I do not like it. Yeah. I was relistening to the Dr.

[00:01:50] McGee one. And I'm just like in my car, just driving and uh, I'm just like, oh, come on, finish this question. Come on. I need Dr. McGee to start talking because I just don't like my own voice, but that's just me personally. But like when you are DJ or talking or any of our guests, I'm like so tuned in, so dialed in.

[00:02:07] Jon Miller: [00:02:07] Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you, but at least for me. Yeah. 

[00:02:12] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:12] No, I know you guys are good. 

[00:02:13] Jon Miller: [00:02:13] Yeah. Any, any fun things happening this summer? 

[00:02:17] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:17] Just had some trips, you know, um, it's wedding season. So like a lot of my friends and my wife's friends were getting married, so doing a few different weddings here and there got another one coming up in a few weeks.

[00:02:28] So yeah. Had a good family trip to Montana, which if you've never been to Montana, It's so cool. Like we went to Yellowstone. It was awesome. Saw grizzly bears. Uh, that was really cool. Mama and her two cubs. So kept a fair enough distance. 

[00:02:40] Jon Miller: [00:02:40] Cool. Yeah. Have you ever performed a wedding before? 

[00:02:44] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:44] I have, yeah.

[00:02:44] Yeah. 

[00:02:45] Jon Miller: [00:02:45] How many? 

[00:02:46] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:46] Uh, two, two, yes. Done. Some weddings done some funerals. Um, they're both interesting in their own, in their own ways. 

[00:02:56] Jon Miller: [00:02:56] Yeah. 

[00:02:56] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:56] Yeah. 

[00:02:57] Jon Miller: [00:02:57] Totally different. 

[00:02:58] Clayton Eddleman: [00:02:58] Very different. And I think, but my favorite part for either is just getting to be there for the family. Um, whether it's celebration of new life beginning together, or celebration of someone's life.

[00:03:11] I, I really just see how God works like in those moments when you're with the family meeting with them. And, um, it's, it's a blessing for me on that end to be kind of receiving that as, as part of, uh, kind of being a pastor, someone who officiates like, even if we're talking about beyond the lines real quick.

[00:03:29] Yeah, I did, uh, a funeral, uh, about a month and a half ago. And, um, it was, it was for a child and yeah. Obviously tough when it's for a kid, but this family just like, they brought me in as if I were my, as, as if I were part of their family and it made me just realize like, wow, like, no matter the pain or the hurt, they're suffering, you're feeling right now.

[00:03:52] Like you are loving me so well, you're going beyond the lines, you know, of just, Hey, you're the pastor, who's doing this. Like, you're bringing me into this, into this family. And so, yeah, that was for me. I mean, that's when I talked about. It's just as much a blessing for me, that was something where it was like, Hey, we want to love you and go beyond the lines there.

[00:04:10] Jon Miller: [00:04:10] Yeah. Wow. That's incredible and such a hard time to be able to, I don't know. I mean, if they've treated you poorly, you would have been like, well, I, I get it. Like, you know, like. 

[00:04:22] Clayton Eddleman: [00:04:22] No one ever does. Yeah. I mean, I can only imagine. Um, like the pain and the emotion felt there, obviously, you know, I've done funerals and I haven't ever cried at a funeral.

[00:04:34] This one, I mean, I was crying while, while doing some stuff and officiating, um, it was just tough, but. 

[00:04:42] Jon Miller: [00:04:42] Wow. Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. And it kind of goes into, um, the first thing I wanted to talk about with like Diana Oestreich's, uh, podcast that we talked about and in her book and in the podcast, she talks about this situation where she,

[00:04:58] um, in the army, we had to choose between if she was the driver and it never came up. It never happened for her, but they were all told us an orientation, basically in Afghanistan. They're like, if you are an Iraq, I can't remember which one they were in. 

[00:05:12] Clayton Eddleman: [00:05:12] I think it was Iraq. 

[00:05:13] Jon Miller: [00:05:13] Okay. Iraq, my bad. Um, but they were told that one of the tactics of the terrorists.

[00:05:19] Was to push a child in front of the caravan, the, the, the United States caravan and stop them so that the back could be ambushed. Um, assuming that the, the officer would have stopped for the child. And she said it was an impossible question that I've never been faced with before to have to choose between,

[00:05:38] a child's life, Iraqi child's life and those in the back of the caravan, um, for the army and her brothers and sisters, their. Like, I don't know. I just keep going back to them. Like, that's not something I think about when I think of war is having to choose between a child's life and their value and the lives of those in behind me.

[00:05:59] Uh, because I don't know. What's really crazy to me is like, I think most people hear when a American child is in danger with that risk, their lives for that child, but they're, they're asked to not risk their lives and just keep going. Because I don't because it's an enemy's child or inner child and, um, I don't have answers, but that's, she said, that's just an impossible choice.

[00:06:25] And I was like, that is an impossible choice. It's not black and white. It's complicated. It's it's like whose child is more valuable, whose life is more valuable. The child is not choosing this. You can't even say that. They chose this, you know, they're fighting, this is war, you know, it's a guy with a gun.

[00:06:40] It, no, it's a child being pushed in front of a moving truck. I don't know. W did you have any thoughts about that? 

[00:06:46] Clayton Eddleman: [00:06:46] Yeah, I mean, that one struck me because, so a little bit of my background and we talked about this in one of our episodes a few months back, but, you know, I was at one point very interesting.

[00:06:58] In pursuing a career in the military and whatnot. And so it really struck me if, to like just the reality of, of war and even thinking about when I was younger. Um, and she kind of talks about it, like, you know, pledging our allegiance to the country, to the cause versus pledging your allegiance to God. And so just hearing that it made me,

[00:07:21] kind of wrestle with like, man, like that really is an impossible decision when you might've gone into this with a, with a mindset of, hey, I'm doing this for my country. I'm doing this for God essentially then, because it's for my country. And then when she was just saying, you know, she's in her bed that night, her cot just like trying to hush her cries and she's praying and, and she

[00:07:44] prayed out to God. And she felt like God was saying, Hey, I love them too. That's what really struck me at like, okay, you gotta, you gotta peel this back and, and look at it from a lens where it's a lens that I think is unique, to, to Christianity, maybe of just, you're not looking at it from like a military perspective or a, my team versus your team.

[00:08:06] But looking at this as like, we are one team we're we're human beings and God loves all human beings. No matter what you look like, where you were born, how you were raised and you know, that even ties into Dr. McGee talking about the one human race. Which is funny how that happens, but yeah, that just, that struck me and like, I don't envy anyone who has ever been put in a position where you have to make that decision.

[00:08:33] Um, it's just like, like when she was saying it's an impossible decision and I'm like, yeah, that is like, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. And I hope I know that I would do the right thing, but even then, yeah. 

[00:08:45] Jon Miller: [00:08:45] The question is what's the right thing. That's impossible choices. Some people say this is the right thing.

[00:08:50] Some people say this is the right thing. And in both would have like a moral, like, reason for that in a ground and logical argument for why this or that is the right thing. It's like, that's what makes it impossible. 

[00:09:02] Clayton Eddleman: [00:09:02] Right. And, and then it's even harder when you start throwing in the teachings of Jesus.

[00:09:07] And she's talking about like, love and pray for your enemies. Like Jesus tells us to do. And it's like, well, how do I love and pray for people who are trying to do harm to myself or others around me and. It's, that's just a tough concept to wrestle with. And I think we're, we're fortunate that people like you and me and DJ, we don't have to think about that every day, because there's not a whole lot of scenarios where I say our lives are in danger necessarily.

[00:09:33] Yeah. Um, but the idea of still loving and praying for people, people who, people who, as Jesus would say are your enemies that that still applies for sure. 

[00:09:44] Jon Miller: [00:09:44] Our enemies are almost sometimes more, like their ideals, like, you know, rather than, you know, I'm going to walk out my door and I'm going to be confronted possibly what the threat to my life or a person that is my enemy like that.

[00:10:00] Um, where I live right now and all that, I don't have to deal with that. And that's definitely a privilege to a privileged life to say that because not a lot of people in the world can say that. And there's lots of people in danger. There's lots of wars going on right now. Even as we speak, it's a. It's uh, something to be grateful for.

[00:10:18] Um, but sometimes I think the, our enemies, our ideals, where we live, uh, where people who hold certain ideals and, uh, we draw those lines and say, I can't, I can't love beyond that. You know what you're saying? There, I just can't. 

[00:10:33] Clayton Eddleman: [00:10:33] Yeah. Or even the ideals, like if you look at it, You know, the series that we're in as a church right now, The Credentialed Life and, and Caleb last week and talked about goodness and, uh, kind of going beyond that, like sometimes our own idols are the things that are our enemy.

[00:10:50] Like we're having a hard time pushing past that and loving beyond like, Hey, my idol right now is comfort. I don't really want to get out of my car when I'm pulled up at the stoplight and maybe actually pray for the person who who's there, who's asking for food or for help. Um, but yeah, that kind of, I think ties in,

[00:11:06] like what our everyday enemy might be as it's it's ourself. And she talked about that with their kids too. It's like, Hey, God made people to be good, but it's it's you who have to make the decision every day to be a good person and to love people, well, so, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:11:24] Jon Miller: [00:11:24] And you mentioning the homeless thing. I loved, I loved Diana.

[00:11:27] Oesteich's like, uh, like desire to just, she said, I'm going to be with the homeless until there are no homeless people, anybody without shelter in my city, I'm going to keep doing it. And something that was convicting for me. She said you can't love someone, you don't know. And she said, if you don't know anyone's name, who is without shelter, you are not loving them.

[00:11:49] Yeah. And it's like, I don't, I don't. And how can I say I'm loving them? I don't know their name. I don't know their story. I can tell you with total honesty that I have thought bad things about, you know, I see somebody on the street that is obviously without shelter. Um, you know, my first. I bet I almost have been trained as like on, you know, they they're because they deserve it.

[00:12:09] Um, but I don't know their name. I don't know their story. How was that loving them? And even if they were there because of their own choices, that's not how Jesus treated people who made bad decisions. You know, he doesn't, he didn't push them away. He walked up to them and he loved them and he said, uh, you're forgiven.

[00:12:28] Clayton Eddleman: [00:12:28] Right. Yeah. I think when she was talking to, about her lifelong commitment, which I, I hope, and I pray that homelessness ends before her life ends, because that would be the best thing. But honestly, I hope, I honestly don't think it will, which is unfortunate, but I love the idea of. I've kind of choosing something to be like, what is your, your lifelong commitment going to be like, how are you going to go and love those people and be a peacemaker there and love and just care.

[00:13:00] And, um, that's got me thinking like, okay, what is, what's the thing for me? Right. And I've got ideas, you know, I think I've talked about some of them on the podcast here before, even with kind of the Dr. McGee thing, talking about the idea of my wife and I kind of choosing where. Where we live and, and loving our neighbors.

[00:13:19] Um, like that's kind of my, my big forte right now. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's cool. It's, there's just, there's so much to take. I think from, from just what she modeled of, like, Hey, here's how we're going to go and, and love these people. What I love too, is that she's bringing her kids into this. And, uh, she's talking about how they're serving together and going and doing these things.

[00:13:46] And she made the funny comment, which, uh, you and DJ had laughed about, like how your kids can kind of be the talking point or the icebreaker for when you go and be with people. But regardless of the fact that it's so cool that she is bringing a new generation of believers into this and saying, Hey, here's how we're going to actually go and love people.

[00:14:08] Um, which I think is so important. And you know, something here at Central that we, that we value is the future generations and the next generation. And so it's got me thinking about like, okay, down the road, when, when kids come into play, like how do you start bringing them into this and, and teaching them to love well like that.

[00:14:26] So. Yeah.

[00:14:29]Jon Miller: [00:14:29] I mean, it's so important because we can say what we believe all we want. We can say that we like people are love people, all we want. Right. But if our kids never see us actually doing it, especially to people that maybe were uncomfortable around. Uh, th th they're gonna think, I mean, they're gonna grow up and be like, you know, this might not actually true because I never see it acted out.

[00:14:51] I mean, you can say words all you want it's until that action is there. And it could be as simple as, you know, I guess it's not simple, but it is simple of devoting your life to the homeless until they're are. With shelter, they have shelter and being there and knowing their names. And, and she said, she goes to the homeless shelter with her family.

[00:15:10] And she does that because that's what they've committed to do. She's not trying to solve all the world's problems because not many single singular humans can do that, but she can be a part of a solution. And if everybody did that, how incredible would that be? If every person did that, you know, who had the means to just going beyond even just donating money, donating

[00:15:33] your life to something, you know?

[00:15:36]Clayton Eddleman: [00:15:36] Right. Yeah. Well, and it makes me think just when she's talking about like, Hey, this is what I do with my family. And, uh, it just makes me think about, you know, faith without action. Like, what's it good for? Nothing really. It's just, it's worthless. And so when it comes to, to actually like putting your money where your mouth is and saying like, no, like, I, I want to love these people and I want to get to know them.

[00:16:02] Um, I think that just, that brings everything up to the forefront a little bit more of like, you know, like God is calling me to love someone or for every person, you know, they're, they're just cause or that group or whatever activity it is, they might pour time and energy and effort into it's different for everybody.

[00:16:20] But I think it's a good call to action and a good reminder for us as believers. Like, no, let's actually go and be the church rather than just saying. Yeah, like I'm a Christian. I believe in Jesus and what he did on the cross for me. And I put my faith in that. But other than that, like, I don't know if I want to do anything, you know?

[00:16:38] Um, so it's, it's challenging and it's also encouraging, I think for, for even like someone like me to just listen to the conversation and what she's talking about. 

[00:16:49] Jon Miller: [00:16:49] Yeah. And something, I, um, another thing that really stuck out to me and she just kind of. And then kept moving on by really like, it hit me. She said when she first began, when she first was, you know, drafted and put it in, headed over to Iraq, she said that something along the lines of that, I had a poverty of perspective and I was like, that's really good because sometimes we think poverty only being in monetary means.

[00:17:17] And I think all of us have some kind of poverty in our lives. It might be spiritual poverty. It might be a PR a poverty of perspective, right. Where we. Then, you know, there's only one good perspective, it's mine. And there are no other stories that, I mean, you might have a different story than mine, but mine is the best perspective.

[00:17:36] And I think most of us would say that we wouldn't, we don't say that out loud. Um, we don't. You know, that's not something we proclaim. Most people don't say that out loud or anything like that. But I think a lot of us, including myself, have thought that in the past, like, well, you have a perspective, you know, but I have the best one.

[00:17:54] And, but it really is. We're having, we have this poverty of perspective. And if you want to really go further with this analogy, I'm thinking of all the people, like so often, like. Monetarily poor people are often blamed for their circumstances, without anybody ever getting to know them, uh, by, you know, uh, people who aren't dealing with that as much like me, uh, because.

[00:18:16] You know, the, the thing is like, oh, they're lazy. They're there because they're lazy. And I think the same is true for our poverty of perspective is like the reason you have a poverty of perspective, it might be because you're not willing to go outside, you know, and work, do the hard work of finding that.

[00:18:31] Right. Right. And learning more, you know, I'm sure that analogy breaks down quickly, but I'm just thinking it through it right here is like poverty of perspective. That is something I think we all need to be reflecting on is where do we have that poverty of perspective of our lives and what can we do to fill that void?

[00:18:48] Um, and we don't have to change our minds. We don't have to be a different person. Uh, those are not requirements, but. Uh, I think a re a requirement of getting more perspective is listening. Yeah. You know, you don't have to forsake everything you've ever known, you ever knew. Uh, but it is a requirement to listen in order to get out of that poverty of perspective.

[00:19:10] Right. Yeah. 

[00:19:12] Clayton Eddleman: [00:19:12] And well, when you talk about poverty of perspective, it makes me think about. What I tie into perspective as well as experience and Dr. McGee, you know, we talked about like, Hey, can you just explain maybe some of the things that you've, you've gone through, where you've experienced racism, and as he was sharing stories of, you know, being stopped when he was a kid with his brother, And the neighborhood that they are living in, or being pulled over one night and, you know, guns were drawn and they're handcuffed.

[00:19:42] And just for, for speeding in the neighborhood when they weren't and even talking about when he was at the jewelry store with his friend who is white and how, when they walked in that security started or the, uh, the store employees started to follow him versus her, it made me start thinking about my own experiences and how I have a poverty in a sense.

[00:20:05] What he's gone through. Uh, like I think about even to just an example from my teenage years and it wasn't a smart one, a decision I made, but I was driving home one night and I saw, uh, some commotion in my neighborhood, some police cars and a chopper, and I'm like 16 or 17. What's going on. Like, it's kind of in my neighborhood, it's on my way home.

[00:20:26] Like, let's stop by and drive by it and drove by and like was stopped by the cops. You're like, what are you doing here? Like, I'm like, I'm just like on my way home wanted to see what's happening. And so they hooked to my license. I saw, you know, I lived like two doors down, like, all right, just, just go home.

[00:20:40] Um, but I think about that. And as Dr. McGee was sharing those stories, that story came up in my mind and I'm thinking, holy smokes. If it weren't for the lack of melanin I have, or, uh, you know, if I were darker skinned, that whole experience could have gone completely sideways. I mean, a completely different story.

[00:21:03] And, you know, I, I thank God that nothing happened, but it made me realize, you know, I, I am lacking a poverty or, uh, you know, I am poor in the sense of, I don't have experiences like Dr. McGee, right. Experienced racism in the ways that he has. And what I'm, what I want to say is, uh, no one deserves undergoing you know, an experience that is racist in nature.

[00:21:29] Absolutely, no one. No matter how you look, but the sad reality is is that we can't always control what other people do to others. So it will happen. You know, he said that you said I've experienced racism my entire life. And I probably will until the day I go home, to Jesus. And that's sad. But it's how he views the reality.

[00:21:51] And, and so what I think about, you know, is the poverty of experience. Like, you know, I don't have those experiences he has, but what can I do to kind of listen and, and experience, not experience, but learn to understand or grow in ways where I'm. Gaining new perspective or learning what others might be going through because in a reality, that is that's loving me on the lines.

[00:22:16] When you start to learn somebody else's story, you start to hear what they've gone through. I think it gives you a new renewed sense of empathy. Of, hey, this is. This is different than what I've experienced, but I hear, and I see what you've gone through because of that. I want to be a part of it now and in helping and ensuring that, that, that just doesn't continue for, from now and in future generations.

[00:22:40] Um, so that's kind of a long tangent, but that was just something that really stuck out to me after my conversation with him, with Dr. McGee. 

[00:22:49] Jon Miller: [00:22:49] And he said a couple, um, really profound things. I mean, he said lots of profound things. Yeah. And he said, I mean, one of the main points he really hit on, uh, I think during your guys's interview, is that a part, he said a part of what is going on right now.

[00:23:02] It's pretty much a direct quote is that people learn about racism from people who have not experienced it. Right. And I was like, I've never thought about it that way, you know? And he said, it's crazy to me that he had to say the statement. I'm not making these things up. That's actually happened to me.

[00:23:19] Yeah. And he goes on to talk about how he experienced trauma because of them. And trauma is real. I mean, most of us have some sort of trauma in our lives and it can be for me, I could just think of a simple one, like, uh, how my bike was stolen from my apartment. It was on my balcony right outside my front door and had chained up and everything.

[00:23:39] It was stolen, you know, it's gone, you know, that was a great bike. The pro the trauma, the small itty-bitty trauma that came with that is now that my me and my wife didn't feel safe anymore. Somebody had walked up onto our second story balcony up the stairs, snipped the wire, while we were still in there and stolen the bike.

[00:23:56] You know, what else could they do? You know, there's this fear that suddenly starts to crop up because of this small incident. It's just the bike. They didn't, I never saw them and they didn't do anything to me at all. I didn't have any interaction with them. Just the fact that they, and if anybody's ever been, had their house broken into their car, broken into.

[00:24:12] That your sense of safety is stolen from you along with it, eh, if you're there or not, and that's a type of trauma and that's the, I, you know, I have other instances of trauma in my life. I could point to. But sometimes we, it's almost like, there's a sense of like, you know, you've experienced racism, but just get over it, you know, but no, this is trauma.

[00:24:32] This is real life experiences. And if, if we can just try to pick something out in our own lives, something as simple as getting your bike stolen. And say, wow, that affected how I viewed the world, how I viewed other people, any other person outside there could, it could have been one of my, my, uh, neighbors could have stolen.

[00:24:50] It could have been the maintenance guy. Could it be just some random guy on the street who saw it? And I don't know, you know, now I'm afraid of everybody a little bit. Like I can't put anything out on my balcony anymore. Somebody might break into, and maybe I need to put extra locks on my door. These are all thoughts that went through my head.

[00:25:05] Over a simple matter. I'm not being pulled over. I'm not having guns drawn on me. I'm not for no reason. You know, it's like, I still don't have that perspective because I haven't experienced it. But if I could just draw these lines where I'm like, I'm, I'm connecting things where like he has experienced trauma and it affects the way he lives.

[00:25:23] It affects his, his sense of safety. And it's real. It's, uh, it's not made up and it's not something you can just instantly get over anybody who has studied trauma and in psychology knows that trauma is not something that you just instantly get over. It's crazy. 

[00:25:40] Clayton Eddleman: [00:25:40] Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, Dr. McGee, didn't talk about it, but when you do go through something like, you know, whether it's your bike being stolen, or someone says something that is racist, You start building these walls, right?

[00:25:54] Like, and you like this layer of, of distrust just kind of starts to come up and you're, you know, someone knocks on your door at night, like, okay, Hey, why are you here? Like, are you the guy that stole my bike? Or, you know, maybe these thoughts start coming up. And in a sense, like when you, when you go through traumatic experiences, you start to build up your.

[00:26:14] You have the potential to build up distrust and to build these walls and say like, hold on, I'm going to push you aside for a second. I'm not going to maybe trust who you are right away, or I'm not, not going to, you know, engage with you fully, which in a sense, you know, when you do that, That's creating the line right here.

[00:26:31] You're not moving beyond that. And so what I was saying, you know, Dr. McGee, didn't say, and I think obviously in the work that he does, uh, and, and being an advocate and an educator on the topics of race, um, when he, when he's talking what he's doing yeah. I don't think he's created a line where he says like, oh yeah, people have been racist to me and they've done these things.

[00:26:51] He's like, no, like here's my experience. Here's what happened. 

[00:26:54] Jon Miller: [00:26:54] He actively invited people to email him back and gave his email that that was of his own volition. He doesn't have to do that. And he says, he'll get coffee with you, anybody. Totally. And it's like, that's incredible to me. What a guy. 

[00:27:06] Clayton Eddleman: [00:27:06] Yeah. Oh. And I think that's like, that is a model of, of how.

[00:27:10] You maybe, you know, you've, you've gotten the short end of the stick. You've not been dealt the fair hand. You know, if it's someone being racist, you are stealing  your bike, like whatever it is, like, you don't want that to happen to you. And so Dr. McGee has had this happen, but he's saying no, Hey, like I'll still engage in a conversation and work with you through these things and just have an open dialogue about it.

[00:27:32] I think that that model is what we're trying to talk about here on the, beyond the lines podcasts of, Hey, let's begin to have these conversations. Let's see a perspective beyond our own, and let's learn to grow out of that and see how we can, uh, become more unified in a sense of, you know, what McGee was talking about.

[00:27:49] Let's let's be one human race actually. 

[00:27:51] Jon Miller: [00:27:51] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he said. Something that he finds really valuable is just sitting down at a table and being able to listen to people from different perspectives. And I love that both of them, Diana Oestreich and Dr. McGee both talked about perspective. It's so important that we hear that, um, Dr.

[00:28:10] McGee also said that there's value in discomfort. And we talked about that today, too. So, and we've talked with, uh, you know, uh, Pastor Cal Jernigan when we first started this and how, um, our lives, we can make them into these small circles where, you know, that's all we experienced and it's a type of poverty.

[00:28:28] If I, you know, keep bringing that analogy up. We're, uh, it's that poverty of perspective where we don't get to understand other people's lives and their world and where they came from and, um, their culture and all these different things. And we can limit ourselves. And I think it limited limits what we're created to be we're limited in our knowledge of God, because we're all made in the image of God.

[00:28:54] And so in that case, we're all like maybe little puzzle pieces that the more other pieces we put together, the more we get to see the face of God, because none of our faces are exactly God, but it's a piece of it. Know none of our experiences are and thoughts and talents is, are, are exactly God, because he's so much more.

[00:29:11] But we're a piece of it. So every piece we get to put together is another piece we get closer to seeing God's fruits, you know, um, kind of cool. 

[00:29:20] Clayton Eddleman: [00:29:20] Even like Cal talks about in her early episodes. Like it's a disservice when you just decide, Hey, I'm just going to live in my bubble. I'm not going to really go beyond it.

[00:29:30] Or I'm not going to have these conversations or talk with other people. And. I don't know about you. I don't want to live like that. Yeah. I don't want to just kind of be okay with complacency and say, yeah, you know, I think I've loved enough for today. I'm not gonna, uh, I'm not going to love anymore. I'm good.

[00:29:48] Hang up my, uh, hang up my badge and call it a day. But yeah, I mean, yeah. I keep saying it again and again, like we're so lucky just to have people like Diana and, um, and Dr. McGee, just where they come and share their stories of like, hey, here's how you can learn a little bit more or grow a little bit deeper and continue to, to love others.

[00:30:11] I just, I love it. 

[00:30:12] Jon Miller: [00:30:12] Absolutely. So I highly recommend you go check out if you haven't already the One Human Race by Dr. Jeff McGee and a Waging Peace by Diana Oestreich. And just read them with an open mind and learn something. You don't have to change everything about yourself. If you don't agree with everything, they're not asking you to write, they're just sharing their stories and their knowledge and, uh, it's vast.

[00:30:35] So check it out. Yeah. Um, yeah. 

[00:30:37] Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:37] Well, that's the thing. Yeah. You can read a book that you don't necessarily agree with, but you can still read it and just say what? Just learn. 

[00:30:45] Jon Miller: [00:30:45] You can learn from something. 

[00:30:46] Clayton Eddleman: [00:30:46] Yeah. So thanks for watching or thanks for listening to the Beyond The Lines podcast. This is one of our recap episodes where Jonathan and I just got to hang out and talk about our episode with Diana

[00:30:56] Oestreich and our episode with Dr. Jeff McGee. Both of those are great episodes. If you're somehow listening to this. Before listening to those two episodes, go back, go find those and check them out because you're going to want to, you're going to want to know what we're talking about here or what we just talked about.

[00:31:12] So, but anyways, we, uh, are from Central Christian Church. Thanks so much for tuning into the, Beyond The Lines podcast, where we are just trying to love beyond the line. Now we're trying to see those lines in the sand that we draw and say, Hey, I'm going to go beyond that, beyond that. Now you can check us out at CentralAZ.com.

[00:31:29] And if you're in the greater Phoenix area, we'd love to have you come to one of our services on the weekend where you can check us out even for an online service, but that's all we got for today. Thanks so much for listening and watching, and we will see you guys on the next episode. 

[00:31:42] Jon Miller: [00:31:42] Alright, bye. 

[00:31:43] Clayton Eddleman: [00:31:43] Peace.