Beyond The Lines

Amplify Peace | Lisa Jernigan | Beyond The Lines Ep. 13

August 11, 2021 Central Christian Church of Arizona
Beyond The Lines
Amplify Peace | Lisa Jernigan | Beyond The Lines Ep. 13
Show Notes Transcript

Everyone like the idea of peace, but when it comes down to it peacemaking can be really hard, messy, and even brutal at times because peacemaking happens in the middle of conflict and tension. When things are peaceful, you don't need a peacemaker. That said, what does it mean to be a peacemaker? Join us on this episode of the Beyond The Lines podcast as we talk with Co-Founder of Amplify Peace Lisa Jernigan!

Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g

Show Notes

  • Amplify Peace: https://amplifypeace.com/
  • Creating a Better Story Together Podcast: https://amplifypeace.com/get-involved/podcast/

New episodes every other Wednesday!

Jon Miller: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to the Beyond The lines podcast. In the world filled with so much division, we wanted to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw on our lives, where we feel like that is our limits. We can't listen past that line, we can't love pass that line, we can't understand someone who's on the other side of the line, but our goal with this podcast is to listen to all people with the dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree.

[00:00:23] My name is Jonathan Miller. And today I have on the podcast, Lisa Jernigan, an amazing peacemaker. And who has just so many stories to share. Welcome, Lisa. 

[00:00:31] Lisa Jernigan: [00:00:31] Well, thank you. It's good to be here. 

[00:00:32] Jon Miller: [00:00:32] Yeah. And she's also the co-founder, co-founder of Amplify Peace, which is we're going to be talking about today. Uh, such a cool organization.

[00:00:41] That's all about peacemaking.. Am I right? 

[00:00:43] Lisa Jernigan: [00:00:43] Yeah, it is totally. 

[00:00:44] Jon Miller: [00:00:44] Cool. Well, how are you doing today? 

[00:00:46] Lisa Jernigan: [00:00:46] Oh, I'm doing good. To, uh, to roll and to talk. And this is one of my favorite topics to talk about. So you got me. 

[00:00:53] Jon Miller: [00:00:53] Awesome. And you also have your own podcast, don't you? 

[00:00:56] Lisa Jernigan: [00:00:56] We do. We have Creating a Better Story podcast that we, we highlight peacemakers that around the world, around the globe that are doing some amazing things, but that you may not know about.

[00:01:05] Jon Miller: [00:01:05] Definitely. If you're interested in to peacemaking, that's the place to go. So check it out. 

[00:01:09] Lisa Jernigan: [00:01:09] Yeah thanks. 

[00:01:09] Jon Miller: [00:01:09] For sure. So you're joining us today on a podcast, not too long after we actually did a podcast together with Todd Deatherage. Yeah. And that was a lot of fun. And he's with Telos and we're talking about the Israel, Palestine conflict, and what's been going on there and it's still going on there and it's been going on for a long time.

[00:01:25] Um, uh, but something I noticed during that, podcast was that you kind of kicked into your own podcasting, uh, experience and started asking Todd questions and we didn't get to learn a lot about from you. And so today I wanted to really focus on getting to know you getting to know Amplify Peace and getting to know your experience.

[00:01:43] Um, first off, can you tell me, tell me about Amplify Peace. What, how did it get started and what brought you there to. 

[00:01:51] Lisa Jernigan: [00:01:51] That's a journey. That's a, that's a, a tough question. So I'll just kind of back into, so about 10 years ago, I Cal and I were invited to the national prayer breakfast in Washington, DC. And in invites it countries, uh, there's like 130 countries from all over the world that come and they come in the name of Jesus.

[00:02:10] So it's not like a Christian thing. A Jesus thing. So you have all different faith backgrounds and different people there it's, it really is a glimpse of just seeing people from a variety of faiths and backgrounds, but they're there because of Jesus. Right. And even though they might have a different, um, perception or understanding of him, they still acknowledge Jesus.

[00:02:33] And so we were invited and to hang out with people from the middle east. So that meant we were going to be with people from Muslim background. So it was one of the first times, um, that I had been really in close contact having conversations. Always supported our global work, but never was really involved. And so when we were invited to attend, I thought, oh, this will be a great opportunity to be in the Capitol to meet people.

[00:02:58] You know, I just saw it as this great experience. I had no idea the impact. 

[00:03:03] Jon Miller: [00:03:03] Wow. 

[00:03:03] Lisa Jernigan: [00:03:03] Those few days were going to have on my life, because one of the first days we're there, I'm sitting in this room and there's these Muslim leaders from these various countries. And we're just sitting like, kind of in a, in a community room, just very informal, just talking.

[00:03:18] And I just remember just asking them questions and I, as they were speaking, they were talking about Jesus and they were like getting emotional about it. And it was kind of foreign to me. I didn't understand that. And so I started asking, I remember asking this one, man. I said, so how do you identify? Like you love Jesus but you're Muslim.

[00:03:40] And so what do you call yourself? How do you identify? And he's like, I will tell you, and he sat there for 45 minutes and just kind of explained his journey, how he loves Jesus, how he's read the new Testament, but he's still a Muslim by faith by background. 

[00:03:57] Jon Miller: [00:03:57] Wow. 

[00:03:58] Lisa Jernigan: [00:03:58] It really, uh, kind of rattled me because I'm like, okay, this is so foreign to me.

[00:04:04] This is so new. Um, I don't understand this. So it created, uh, a really a lot of curiosity and, um, I'm like, okay, there's so much, I don't understand. I've never been taught or never heard, or I've been taught and heard just one side. Right. So it kind of propelled me into a journey of like, okay, I got to learn, I've got to, I got to understand some things here.

[00:04:29] And I came home that week going, um, I think I've seen the world mainly through my Western Christian box and not through a kingdom mindset and box. And that was really pivotal for me. 

[00:04:43] Jon Miller: [00:04:43] Hmm. 

[00:04:44] Lisa Jernigan: [00:04:44] With all that. 

[00:04:45] Jon Miller: [00:04:45] Wow. What, what were some of the main things you think that. That you were seeing that you started to unsee at that point where you're like, wow, I didn't know

[00:04:53] that was a barrier there between me and them, but it was what were some of those things that you notice were being revealed in that time? 

[00:05:00] Lisa Jernigan: [00:05:00] Yeah, that's a good question. I, you know, we put labels, right. And we're told who those people are, those people, right. And that faith. And so you just go, you come in with this mindset.

[00:05:10] I know who you are, but I was sitting down letting them tell me who they were. And there's a big difference in that. So when they're telling me who they are and they're explaining their love, it changes everything. 

[00:05:22] Jon Miller: [00:05:22] Wow. 

[00:05:23] Lisa Jernigan: [00:05:23] And so I have to step back and go, okay, I can't, I have put you in a box and maybe they have me in a box.

[00:05:29] Right. And we don't think about sometimes we're in a box and other people's minds and perceptions because maybe they've been taught something about us. That we go, that's so not who we are. I remember, uh, traveling years ago, this was going to date me. Um, we were at Cal and I had a youth trip and we were, I think in Argentina.

[00:05:46] And, um, I remember this guy asking, cause they're like, well, America is a Christian nation. And um, I said, so how do you see us? What do you, what do you think about when you think about us? And he goes, well, we think that you, Christians are like Madonna. This is where I'm dating myself. And I go, what do you mean?

[00:06:01] Well, that's we hear that you're a Christian nation and then we see Madonna. So we think that's how Christians act. And we are appalled by it in many ways. Right. And it was one of those. Okay. They have a perception of me that I'm like, that's not who we are. That's how you know. And so then it's always made me think, okay, what do people think of me?

[00:06:23] I might have an opinion of them, but what is their opinion of me? And, uh, where did they get that opinion of me? Just like, where did they get that opinion? Them. Yeah. And so it just, it just takes you deep to, like, I gotta peel back some layers and go, where, where are these ideas coming from? Where have I learned this?

[00:06:40] And I think that's still true today. That's continuing to do where it, where did I pick that up? Where did I learn that? Right. And have I taken the time to hear maybe another side or be challenged with another point of view? 

[00:06:54] Jon Miller: [00:06:54] Hm, man. And, and being willing to listen throughout that whole process, because I mean, uh, knee jerk reaction would be.

[00:07:03] Immediately defend, put your dukes up, get ready to fight and be like, no, no, no, no. That's not who I am. I'll tell you who I am. And I'll tell you who you are. And I'm going to tell you why you think that and not listen and understand why they are, where they are, right? Yeah. 

[00:07:19] Lisa Jernigan: [00:07:19] Then that becomes a debate and not a dialogue and you never, debates

[00:07:23] never really go well, unless you're doing it professionally and trying to get, you know, in school or something on the debate team, but trying to debate somebody into changing their mind and seeing you never works, but it's about a dialogue, you know, when you come into the conversation to go and then somebody says something you're like, well, help me understand how you picked up that opinion.

[00:07:42] Help me understand how, you know, what informed your thinking of that. And then they will go back and it's like, it's really helpful. And it really informs you to go, okay, I see beyond what you're saying. 

[00:07:54] Jon Miller: [00:07:54] Hmm. That's really good. That's really good. How did that, I guess you, you started at the prayer breakfast.

[00:08:00] How did that evolve into starting a whole organization for this? 

[00:08:04] Lisa Jernigan: [00:08:04] Yeah, so I just thought, you know what? I have so much to learn and I'd been a believer my whole life. Growing up in the church. And so I, I had to give myself permission to challenge some of the things that I'd held onto as truth. And I had other people around me going it's okay.

[00:08:19] It's okay. To, to explore, to think about. Maybe seeing God differently than what you've, maybe you've put God in a box. Yeah. And so I had to look at that and, you know, just ask God some questions to reveal some things to me, show me things. So I started reading a lot. I started, um, trying to meet with people that were either further along on the journey or there were different to just listen to them.

[00:08:41] Just like, just speak into me. Just tell me. No, I don't have to agree with everything I'm hearing. And I think that's part of the problem. A lot of times we think we can't listen to somebody because, um, I don't agree with the whole thing. You know, I don't agree with this part of you. So then this part of you can't be right.

[00:08:56] Right. And so we, we don't learn, we don't listen to somebody else because we've already think we know how they're going to feel. So I just started putting myself in front of people that maybe had a different opinion, had a different, um, experience in life, faith, background, culture, and I just, I started asking questions and then, um, I started traveling.

[00:09:19] I started traveling to the middle east, getting invited to like, well, come sit here. And I met one of my first trips. I had a friend that I had met in this global journey and she, uh, it was soon after, uh, the Syrian crisis it hit. And a lot of refugees were pouring into Jordan. And she, uh, contacted me. I didn't know her that well.

[00:09:37] And she said something inside me is saying, I, uh, I need to go over to Jordan. And she had worked with a lot of, um, a lot of organizations high up. And so she had been involved with this and she goes, do you want to go with me? I feel like we need to go see firsthand. What's really happening and going on.

[00:09:52] And she goes, I know it sounds crazy. And I wrote back and I, because it sounds crazy. I am so in like, it doesn't make sense, but it makes total sense. And so there was about three or four of us that she had lined up, but some organizations are already on the ground there. And so we flew into Amman, we met and they took us into, um, some of these refugee camps that now you can't get into, but that was the early days.

[00:10:19] And so we got in with some of these organizations see the work they were doing, and we just listened to people's stories and they were heartbreaking. And one of the things I realized on that trip is that could be me. Like these people were middle-class had cars, had all the modern conveniences, had nice houses, and now they're living in tents in a refugee camp.

[00:10:41] And, um, again, I had to wrestle with that. I didn't know what to do with that because, that could be me. And by the grace of God, it wasn't me. A lot of them had to flee so quickly that they didn't have any identification with them. And so now they're stuck in this land. They can't move, they don't have any way out.

[00:10:58] They have no, oh, no identification. And so you just you're just hear these stories. And these people were just beautiful. I mean, their spirits and yet their living conditions were horrific. And, uh, so that was, uh, that was another pivotal moment that I went, okay, I've got to do something like God's allowing me to meet incredible people, hear their stories that others will never hear.

[00:11:21] Um, I I've been, you know, the proximity of being up close, listening to the story, seeing what's really happening and I can't walk away. I can't turn my back and go back to my comforts and to my freedom without doing something. So it kind of propelled me to a journey and it was several years. I think a lot of times we hear something or we be like, I got to do something and we think we have to do it immediately because we're in that I gotta do something quickly.

[00:11:48] And so this took time. This took a few years of just wrestling with, um, some of my own beliefs wrestling with what I'm seeing. Wrestling with what's happening. Wrestling, what can I really do? Can I really make a difference? And so, um, again, I just started traveling, meeting people, um, meeting the most amazing people, going to Iraq, meeting a woman who had just like a few days prior, been released from captivity as ISIS wife for a year and a half.

[00:12:19] And hearing her story, you know, you're sitting in sacred space. Yeah. I'm hearing a story like that and you have no box. And, um, so you, you leave, you go, I am not the same person. I don't, I don't want to be the same person. I don't want to just come back and forget what I've, what I've experienced, what I've seen, what I've heard.

[00:12:38] So it was just praying, asking God, you know, what, what is mine? And so I was, you know, do I join with somebody else? Do what does that look like? And then when I, one trip I was in, um, I was in Israel and we were in, um, a part of a city in the West Bank and we were actually in a school and we were walking up to meet with some of these school aged children.

[00:12:59] And you could see bullet holes in the walls and windows from attacks on. And outside the window of the school, you could see, um, you could see tanks patrolling and stuff. And here at these school kids just full of life and, and, uh, you know, just being kids, right. Being high schoolers, and yet their world around them, I, you know, we can't even comprehend.

[00:13:23] So I remember just listening to them and there was a, there was a small group of us and we were talking to them and they said, we can ask them questions. So I remember I asked him a question. I said, what do you dream of becoming. Who do you want to be when you, when you grow up? Um, and the answer to that I think was really pivotal and propelling forward because a lot of what I heard is I want to be a journalist.

[00:13:44] I want to be a photographer. I want to be, um, one guy, what a little kid said. I want to be the president because I want to change things. And, um, Uh, w when was, I want to be a musician, another ones, I want to be an artist. And as I listened to each one of those, I thought these were all things that expressed.

[00:14:04] They were all like using their voice, so to speak their life as their voice, and to create and to do something. And so that just kind of like, What could we do to kind of amplify their voice, right. To let their story be heard, to let people see this invisible people group and wherever they are in the world.

[00:14:24] Like, there's just people that are amazing people we never hear about. And so how do we give life to their life? How do we. You know, voiced for their voices. And so that's what kind of compelled me and how to kind of came up with, and I met Danielle Strickland on a, uh, on a trip. We were both doing something with the GLS in Chicago one year And.

[00:14:48] I met her. I didn't really know who she was. We just started talking, she was doing justice work. I was into peacemaking and she had done a lot with women and I had a heart for women. And how do we, you know, really amplify women's voices. So we just started talking about what if we did something together from your experience, my experience.

[00:15:05] And so it, that it kind of just evolved in birth. And then we called it the Amplify Peace and how do we amplify the voices of women a lot? We really want to cause a lot of times women's voices aren't heard. And then how do we amplify the voices of the marginalized and the silence? And those are invisible.

[00:15:24] Um, And that's kind of what we try to do. So whether it's right here in our own backyard or it's somewhere where we meet somebody, we learn best through story and stories, connect us and, um, they're transformational. 

[00:15:37] Jon Miller: [00:15:37] Wow. That's so cool. Um, what were, I guess my mind thinks, so like some of these themes that you are going after of listening and amplifying voices that aren't being heard, some of these themes.

[00:15:52] Some people don't want to happen. Have you ever had resistance to what you're doing at Amplify Peace or is it felt like pretty much everybody you've met is receptive to it. 

[00:16:03] Lisa Jernigan: [00:16:03] I wish everyone was really receptive, but you know, we say, cause we even know here at Central, like when we've done things and there's the peace making or whatever. Peace is beautiful,

[00:16:13] and everybody likes peace, but peacemaking can be really hard, messy and brutal at times because to do peacemaking, you have to be, a lot of times in the middle of conflict or tension. Cause that's when peace is needed, when things are peaceful, you don't need a peacemaker. Right? And so you find yourself in those places of holding tension, conflict, two different voices two different people, groups, and then you have people on the outside looking at it, judging, going well that people group should not be given voice and that people group should.

[00:16:42] So you have people on the outside deciding who. Is right or wrong. And that's that binary thinking, which we try to, you know, talk about. It's like, how do we hold both? How do we hold different truths? Not saying you have to totally agree, but how do we hold them and not automatically defer that one is right.

[00:16:59] And one is wrong. One is in, one is out. And we do that a lot without even recognizing that we do that. And so, um, I, you know, some of my travels when I've come back. And if I've posted or somebody posted about what I did, I several times have gotten people going, do you understand what's really going on?

[00:17:17] Why would you go be with those people? They're not good people, they're this. And again, this is what they've been told. Right? And so it gives me an opportunity to just share my story, my journey, and their story. And then it's up to God, what they want to do with it. 

[00:17:32] Jon Miller: [00:17:32] That's a really good stance to have.

[00:17:34] Cause I think it's so easy to fall into that binary thinking of, you know, there's white and black and there's good and evil. And you know, we are told this is evil. This is good. There's no mixing. There's no, you know, there's no half here, half there. There's no complexity, you know, and often if we just look at our own personal lives, look at our own personal lives and realize.

[00:17:56] Wow. My life is complex. Like there is a lot of things going on. I have not made all good decisions. I have not made all bad decisions. 

[00:18:04] Lisa Jernigan: [00:18:04] Right. 

[00:18:04] Jon Miller: [00:18:04] And it's complex. And if we could just see that for everything, you know, it's not all black and white, it's complex, there's so many shades of, of what's going on and, and we need to listen.

[00:18:15] And that, that is such a good stance to have. 

[00:18:18] Lisa Jernigan: [00:18:18] Well, and know, like you said, making it personal too, because we all do things where like, oh, why did I do that? Does that make us a bad person? We do things that are really good and you're like, okay, I'm going to celebrate it. I did something good per day. Right.

[00:18:31] And you're like, okay, let's really hold on to that one. But it's like, how do you hold both? Because both are who I am. Right. So I'm not good or bad. I'm just holding onto, I do things that are not so good. And I do think, you know, it'd be good, but how do I hold them both. Right. And just in that tension. And I think that's been part of my learning process too, with all that.

[00:18:50] And that's how we kind of came up with our three operating words. We talk about this, listen, how do we posture ourselves as listeners and, and lean in with curiosity to learn and not come in saying, I'm the expert. I'm going to tell you. But I come in going, I have a lot to learn and I want to hear from you and come in asking questions.

[00:19:08] I love to ask questions because. People love to talk, you know, and it's a really good way. And then once you've listened and learned, hopefully you will live differently. So then that's our three words. Listen, learn, and live, live differently as a result of what you've just experienced, what you've seen, what you've heard and hopefully it, it causes you to go.

[00:19:27] I can't be the same. 

[00:19:29] Jon Miller: [00:19:29] Hmm. What are some of the ways that you've noticed people within Amplify Peace in your own life. What are some of the biggest ways that you've seen people live differently after they've learned and listened? 

[00:19:39] Lisa Jernigan: [00:19:39] Yeah. Yeah. You know, and for each person with the beautiful part of the journey, it's as different for every person, right?

[00:19:45] I mean, we've had people come back and go, um, I was different around a holiday table with family members, you know, who held different opinions. Um, I used to want to go in there and debate and stand my ground. And now I just sit and ask questions and listen to them and where and where they're, where they, where they got that, you know, that belief.

[00:20:06] And, and I didn't debate them because I listened to them. Then we actually had a really good dialogue. Right. Because it diffuses things so that we can actually just have a conversation and, you know, it goes back to agree to not to disagree. Right. And that's, that's okay. Um, I've had people that have changed careers, you know?

[00:20:24] Um, yeah. Julie who's, you know, part of our team, our executive director, she left a thriving career because God put a calling in her heart and she's like, I just see this way of peacemaking and this journey, I feel called into it. So you've seen the extremes right. Of both, um, uh, people just going, I. I have to make some changes here and people have even gone back to their jobs and said, um, how do we humanize some of these issues that are before us with people?

[00:20:53] And so they've even helped change policy within companies about, you know, maybe what we're doing. We're just putting a number on people. Maybe we put a face on. Hmm. And so you just seen all different ways and leaning in having different conversations with family. Cause it starts at home. It's like we don't have to all go overseas.

[00:21:10] We all have to do create world peace, but it starts inside of our own hearts and the willingness to, I'm going to lead into this and what is, what is causing me asked that I need to go, Hmm. I need to learn more about that. Right? What is maybe God's talking to teach one of us and from that place, you know, how then we in our families, in our neighborhoods and churches, and then that's, it just grows the ripple effects from it.

[00:21:35] Jon Miller: [00:21:35] Wow. I like that comment about world peace. Like, it doesn't mean you have to change world peace, but I'm just thinking like, you know, sometimes we forget when we think the world we're like, oh, that's everywhere else. Right? Well, the world is actually right here too, you know, on the world. Right. So it's like changing ourselves first and letting ourselves be these peacemakers and, and listen changes the world.

[00:21:55] It does. And in small ways, maybe to you, but yeah. It could be bigger than you even realize.

[00:22:01]Lisa Jernigan: [00:22:01] Absolutely. It starts within us first and that's, and that's, you know, a lot of times, because we are very experiential about peacemaking. I think transformation happens in the experience a lot of times. So how do we let people have their own experience and not tell them what to think or what the outcome, or come in with this agenda.

[00:22:18] This is what we want at the end, but just, we want you to step into this and see what God wants you to do, or see what God wants you to hear. Um, or just, just step into it, right. And there's no expectation if you pray differently, that would be a huge thing. Like as you see people differently. So whatever it is for you just pray, pray about it.

[00:22:36] And it's just, it's, it's been really, um, fun to watch people have their own journey and go. I had no idea that I believe this until it was put in front of me. I had no idea that I'd been holding onto this until, heard this or saw that. And so just giving them that space, um, to have their own journey, their own personal journey of, of listening to themselves, listening to their own heart and learning about where did that idea come from, that I've been holding onto, is it okay to let it go and giving each other permission to go

[00:23:11] it's okay, to let go of some things that you held onto and to new and just being in that space with God. God, who, what do you want me to know? 

[00:23:20] Jon Miller: [00:23:20] What do you want me to know? That's a great question to ask God. I'm thinking of sometime in, sometimes in my life where I've realized I've been really in the wrong, or I've thought things about people that just hasn't been true.

[00:23:32] I am very attempted to be shamed of that ashamed of it. And the first reaction, unfortunately of shame, at least in my life is to not deal with it is to hide it right, instead of doing anything about it. Um, and I think that's very normal for a lot of people, but do you have any advice for people who are, might be dealing with that?

[00:23:52] Like maybe they've realized. Uh, they've been a part of, or they've done or, or they just weren't ignorant of, then they're ashamed of it's. Uh, how do you, how do you get through that? 

[00:24:02] Lisa Jernigan: [00:24:02] And that's such a good thing because sometimes that paralyzes, so we do do nothing, right. Or it seems so overwhelming and we do nothing.

[00:24:09] I think just recognizing is a huge thing and going, I miss that. Right. Or I got that wrong. I've had that happen so many times going. I had no idea. Yeah. And then just go, what else have I missed? What else have I gotten wrong? Cause I didn't. And so what that causes do is just like, well, then do something.

[00:24:26] You know, you can't go back and you can't beat yourself up, but you go, you know what? I didn't have that information area of, and if I did, I didn't handle it. Right. But I can change that today and I can make a different decision today and I can go forward. And if there's somebody I need to say, I need to ask for forgiveness because I didn't handle that well, or I never saw that.

[00:24:46] Um, do that, you know, if that, I mean, it, it, it creates a bridge. You'll bless them. You'll receive the blessing, letting go and just go. Today's a new day. And I love that about God. You know, every day is a new day. It's a fresh day and he starts all over with us each day and you just start all over and go, okay, from this moment forward, this is who, this is how I'm going to show up.

[00:25:08] This is who I choose to be. This is how I choose to see what God puts in front of me. And so there's always a new day. 

[00:25:15] Jon Miller: [00:25:15] Yeah, I 

[00:25:15] love that. I love that. 

[00:25:17] Lisa Jernigan: [00:25:17] Let me share a story. 

[00:25:18] Jon Miller: [00:25:18] I love to hear a story. 

[00:25:20] Lisa Jernigan: [00:25:20] So one of the, uh, have a good friend. Her name is Ginger Sunbird. She's from the, um, Gila River Indian community.

[00:25:28] That's just borders are our community, right? Yeah. And a lot of times we don't see them and I didn't really see them. And I've been on a journey for the past few years of just understanding our Native American story. That's so prevalent. They're our neighbors. They live here. They called this place home before we did, you know, and just seeing them.

[00:25:44] And so the past year with COVID, um, I really, I got to know her right before COVID, um, happened and so we can just continue it. I just, I just came up to her and I said, I have much to learn from you. Can I just, um, and I'm not putting that burden on her cause I'm not, I know a lot of times feel burden, but um, can we just get together and just talk and,

[00:26:07] whatever you want to say, and I don't have any expectation or anything. And she does trainings, um, cultural sensitivity trainings for a lot of, uh, organizations that work with Native American people. And so I would just like to hear what you do, you know, more about your work. So we just started a conversation and a friendship and over we'd just meet over zoom or over a call and just kind of regularly.

[00:26:28] And, um, she was just so gracious and, um, so caring with me. And I would just say, can I ask a question and I don't know how this is going to come about, but can you offer me grace? And she gave me permission to ask whatever I wanted to ask and cause a lot of things you don't know, you know, and you don't know if it's this appropriate question.

[00:26:49] So I would just say, please hear my heart. I don't want to offend any way. Well, one day we're having a conversation and I asked her a question. And after I asked her this question, there was this pause and the silence. And I thought, huh, I wonder if I asked that in a, you know, kind of, uh, so I said, um, did I just ask that question wrong?

[00:27:15] And she goes, well, she said, you know, um, I listened to you the words of your heart instead of your English. And I said, okay, explain that to me. And she goes, I knew your, I know your heart and I know your intentions. So I didn't let that get in the way of your English words. And I said, so what should I have said?

[00:27:35] And she said, well, you, you asked with, can I, and you use first person. And she goes, and tribal culture. We use third person. We would never say I did this. I would like this. I, you know that. And she goes, so I said, so how should I have asked that question? What is the appropriate way? She goes, maybe like, say like, would it be possible if a few people, or if somebody wanted to do something, could they do this?

[00:28:02] She goes, that's the way we would ask it. And I'll never forget that conversation because I realized, first of all, how many times I used the word me, I. Right first person and it just taught me like a different way. And then how she handled it with me, she wasn't offended. She didn't go, okay. You are so wrong with that.

[00:28:21] Like that was so bad. Right. She just, yeah. I listened to your heart. And so that has taught me to like, I'm going to choose to choose not to be offended. And I'm going to choose to listen to people's heart and give them the benefit of the doubt. And it doesn't always happen, but I'm on that journey to go.

[00:28:38] What if we listened to each other and said, I heard the words of your heart more than I heard. Your, you know, your verbal. Yes. So I, she just taught me so much in that moment that I carry that with me and I, uh, it's really, it's really guided me in a lot of conversations. 

[00:28:59] Jon Miller: [00:28:59] And what, what a great amount of humility for her to be able to say.

[00:29:05] Even for her who probably hears stuff like that all the time. Right. And because of her cultural background, it could be painful to hear. Right. And we have no idea, not a clue because maybe we've never asked before, or we've never looked into it. And so for her to be able to. I know who you are. I know your name.

[00:29:25] I know what you're about. And so I know that you didn't mean it that way, and I love you because of that. What w how much humility of that, and then also the humility, uh, in your parts to listen and ask the question, like, what did I do wrong? And, and what, how can I correct it in the future so that I don't continue to do it wrong?

[00:29:43] Like, the conversations and humility. I think that we all need right now. 

[00:29:48] Lisa Jernigan: [00:29:48] Well, it's about relationships, right? Life is about relationships. And how do we have respectful dialogue and understanding and not trying to go in and telling somebody they're wrong and forcing our opinions on somebody, but go, I just want to learn from you.

[00:30:01] I just want to be in this space with you. I want to, I want to honor you. I want to reveal your dignity. It's one of those things. Everybody has dignity, and I think ours is to reveal that. And, um, no matter who they are and just, how do we have, how do we really have healthy relationships? And if we can get that right, because God was all about relationships and, you know, in his prayer, John 17, that they all may be one.

[00:30:28] Right. Just as thought, just father and you and I are one. Um, and so I just think that we can learn a lot from that. It's like it is about relationships and learning how to live together, how to love each other, respect each other. Again, it's unity, not uniformity. So how do we really practice? What Jesus taught us.

[00:30:48] Jon Miller: [00:30:48] Wow. I've never heard that before. It's it's UN it's unity, not uniformity. I love that. You know, just unity doesn't mean we all look the same sound the same, think the same. It means despite the fact that we don't look the same, don't think the same and don't believe the same all the time. We are still one. And, and we're loved and we're all beautiful and our uniqueness and that's, that's really beautiful.

[00:31:12] Um, something you mentioned earlier about how you got to hear some of the stories, um, in the refugee camps you were in and, uh, that no one is ever will ever be able to hear, you know, um, made me curious, you know, is there any stories that stand out to you from, from those people that. You feel like would be a good one for people to hear today.

[00:31:34] Lisa Jernigan: [00:31:34] Well I told you about the one we met with a gal from ISIS, such as release from ISIS, and that was a really hard story. Um, I remember one woman, um, in Jordan and we went into her home. And she just has this little stove in the corner that she cooked from. I mean, just wood. I mean nothing right. Dirt floor, all of that. And yet she just had this beautiful smile.

[00:31:56] And so she had to sit down with her and, um, we were just talking and I just asked her, um, I said, tell me about your life before, you know, what was it like in Syria? And, um, she, all of a sudden her face changed and she just started crying. And then I felt really bad. I'm like, oh my goodness. And I was with a friend and she looked at me and she goes, great one.

[00:32:22] And I'm like, oh my gosh, it felt so bad. And so we just sat in that moment and she just cried and, um, didn't try, fix it or like, and then she got her composure and she said, I had a beautiful life. I had three cars, I had a washer and dryer and a stove and telling, all the things she had. Um, and, but I'm grateful

[00:32:43] I'm here right now with my kids. And I, I just remember, I just went up to her and gave her a hug. And when we, when we left, she spoke to an interpreter. So when we left, she comes up to me and she points to her heart and she points to my heart and she made the heart sign and she said, you and me.. And it was just a beautiful gesture because I felt like we connected because you're asking questions, she's sharing, you're sharing tears, you're sharing a moment and it is about making a heart connection.

[00:33:15] And I don't see you as a refugee. Right. Yeah. I know that you are a refugee by your journey, but that's not your label. You're this beautiful woman. You're this mother, you're this wife, you're this beautiful child of God that, you know, this journey. Doesn't take that away from you though. You may have lost a lot.

[00:33:35] And so I'm always humbled, in those situations and humbled by people like her, because I don't know how I would handle that, frankly. I don't know how we would do it that I don't think very well. But they, uh, they teach me a lot about God's love about human love, because there was nothing that we shared in common,

[00:33:55] really. Didn't share a language, didn't share a phase, didn't share a culture. And yet we were connected at the heart. Wow. And she's pointed that out to me and I'll never forget that. I mean, I remember walking to our van and I just kept turning around, looking at her and she just kept staying at the same, like putting your hand over her heart and you know, that, that transcends any words and that just like, that's what life is about.

[00:34:19] Right. It's just connecting at the heart. Even though we have all our differences, we're still connected at the heart and to the heart of God. 

[00:34:28] Jon Miller: [00:34:28] And what I think is really powerful. I mean, so much powerful about that story. But one thing I, I, I just noticed is that you start off by saying she was smiling and she looked as happy as can be.

[00:34:38] And sometimes we could just assume, because my puts a smile on their face that, oh, they're happy. They're fine. You know, I remember visiting a refugee family here. They cooked for us. They invited us into her home. We danced, they smiled. And later we had like a debrief and they asked the question, you know, do you think, you know, their apartment was tiny.

[00:34:59] It was, you know, very in poor conditions, but we're like, oh yeah. People were like, yeah, they were really happy with what they have and excited. And it's great. And she said, that's one of the things we want to help teach you is that they'll put a smile on for you. Um, because they don't want you to have a bad time.

[00:35:16] They want to be hospitable. They want to be there for you. Um, but they are struggling deeply and they would love to have, you know, a bigger house that doesn't have bugs in it. And they would love to be able to own their own house or something like that, but they can't. Um, and that really does hurt, but they'll put a smile on for you.

[00:35:35] And how do you get past the, you ask questions and you care, and with genuine curiosity, you care about them. And then you get to be invited into those sacred spaces where they tell you what their life is like, what it was like, um, if you're willing to listen, right. And you show that, you know, um, and you're not trying to gain anything from it.

[00:35:55] It's just for them. 

[00:35:57] Lisa Jernigan: [00:35:57] Right. And as for me, I mean, they, they teach us more than we, that we bring to them and, um, you know, yeah. It's a beautiful experience. Hard, really hard. Yeah. But beautiful in many ways. 

[00:36:10] Jon Miller: [00:36:10] Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up Lisa. Um, is there any final remarks, anything you would love to say to the audience?

[00:36:18] Uh, who's listening and maybe considering peacemaking themselves. Maybe they're terrified of it. There anything you'd like to say to them.

[00:36:26]Lisa Jernigan: [00:36:26] I think all those emotions are part of it. Right. And we, we it's like, it's terrifying. It's exhilarating. It's wonderful. It's messy. All of those. And sometimes I think we have to have either or, but it's like yes, to all of it.

[00:36:38] Wow. And just, this has been the most incredible journey of my life that I, I don't see it ever ending. We're always gonna need peacemakers and we need courageous peacemakers to step in these spaces of conflict intention, whether it's Ana interpersonal, you know, basis, whether it's between, you know, and companies it's, you know, it's in our churches, right.

[00:36:59] It's w it's all over. How do we, how do we show up as peacemakers? And I think if we can start training the next generation and, you know, talking to our children differently, if we just start talking differently, respecting each other, that's the work of a peacemaker. And you know, I just go back to you.

[00:37:17] Blessed are the peacemakers for, they shall be called the children of God. What a beautiful, um, what a beautiful identity right to do. And so I know this is something I'm going to give with my whole heart for the rest of my life. And, uh, I was just telling someone the other day, it's like, I think you have to know your why.

[00:37:36] Like, why does this matter to me? Why am I doing this? And my, why has eight faces that are called grandchildren. And I look at my eyes, I look at each and one of my grandchildren and someday I want them to know that I did everything I could to make this world a better place for them, that I fought for them.

[00:37:54] I thought fought for their future. And, um, I did all that I could do. And that's important to me. So I look at their faces and it keeps me going like this matters. Um, our world needs Jesus. Our world needs peacemakers that will live the way of Jesus. And, um, uh, that's my, my, my journey and my pursuit. 

[00:38:14] Jon Miller: [00:38:14] Wow.

[00:38:15] Thank you so much for sharing that so much in that. Thank you for joining us for Beyond The Lines podcast. We're so excited to be able to film this podcast and record this podcast, at Central Christian Church in Arizona. Um, if you're curious about our church, check us at CentralAZ.com slash nothing, just CentralAZ.com is fine.

[00:38:31] Um, and, uh, you can come if you're in the valley of the Phoenix valley, you can come visit any of our locations in person, or you can check us out online. We have online services as well, so. And, uh, can't wait to see how you're loving beyond your lines. Thank you everybody.