As Christians, we are called to love others in a way that is Christ-like. So how do you best love someone who has an addiction? So often we want to help but we don't know how or what to do. In this episode of Beyond The Lines, Central Christian Church's Cares Pastor, David Wilinski provides practical ways that we can love them while giving them grace, truth, and time.
Central Cares (Celebrate Recovery, Boundaries, Parents of Addicted Loved Ones): https://www.centralaz.com/cares
Addiction Resources: https://www.centralaz.com/Content/ExternalSite/care/Central%20Cares%20Addiction%20-%20v2.pdf
Adult & Teen Challenge: https://teenchallengeusa.org/
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[00:00:00] Clayton Eddleman: Well, Hey, welcome to the Beyond The Lines Podcast. Everybody has lines in the sand that they draw. And what I mean by that is saying, Hey, I'm not going to love beyond this line. And so here on this podcast, we want to talk about those lines. We want to say, Hey, how do we actually love beyond and really reach out to those people that we're finding it's hard to love.
[00:00:18] And so I'm Clayton Eddleman. I'm one of the hosts. I've got my friend Jonathan Miller. Man that's it. And then we've also got today, David Willinski who is going to be talking with us. He's got a remarkable story, super excited to hear from him and just how he has been loved beyond the lines and how he continues to love beyond the lines.
[00:00:37] So, yeah, it's gonna be a good time.
[00:00:38] David Wilinski: Awesome, thank you guys.
[00:00:39] Jon Miller: Yeah. Welcome. I'm glad that how are you doing today before we just launch in? Nobody knows you. How are you doing?
[00:00:44] David Wilinski: I'm doing well. You know, just living life and going through the different challenges that come every day, but loving it.
[00:00:50] Jon Miller: Yeah, man.
[00:00:51] What a great description of life.
[00:00:53] Clayton Eddleman: That's pretty accurate.
[00:00:54] Jon Miller: That's a good way to do it. Yeah. Cool. While you, um, have worked at teen challenge, um, for a long time, how many years were you at teen challenge?
[00:01:02] David Wilinski: I was a teen challenge for like 13 years.
[00:01:04] Jon Miller: 13 years.
[00:01:05] That's a long time. And what I mean for those people out there who don't know, what is teen challenge all about?
[00:01:11] What did you do at teen challenge?
[00:01:13] David Wilinski: Sure.
[00:01:13] So it's an interesting story. Uh, but I actually went through teen challenge as a student in the program originally, but what it's designed for and why I was a student, is anyone with any life controlling addiction. And so it was a residential program that houses, uh, men, women, children, Um, all different ages.
[00:01:29] There's over 250 in the United States and there's over 2000, I believe around the world. Wow. And so there's so many different options for people to get help, but, uh, it is a year long. Uh, but with that year long resident resident residential program, it had an 86% success rate.
[00:01:46] Jon Miller: Wow. And
[00:01:46] what does that mean?
[00:01:47] What does success?
[00:01:48] David Wilinski: That's a
[00:01:49] great, another great question. And so that means that someone who graduated the program five years after they graduated, they were followed up with, and they were still living a well and sober and clean life with Jesus.
[00:01:59] Jon Miller: Wow.
[00:02:00] Wow. So you have a ton of experience with working with people who are dealing with addiction, specifically, teens, right?
[00:02:06] I'm assuming from the name.
[00:02:07] David Wilinski: So that is a misleading part. Okay. It's actually adult and teen challenge. They're changing. It w our Arizona branch was just teen challenge. Yeah. And so I was actually the pastor and director for the Tucson men's teen challenge. And so I had, uh, men 18 and over, uh, even all the way up to, like, I think one of the oldest guys I had was like 68 years old.
[00:02:26] Okay. Misleading name, but yeah,
[00:02:30] Jon Miller: Yeah. That was just an assumption. Thanks for clearing that up. That really helps. Um, so today we really want to focus in on how can we love people who are dealing with addiction. I think there's a huge stigma around those people who are dealing with addiction. And also like usually we categorize it just with like drug addiction and that's it.
[00:02:48] Right. But there's so many other different types of addiction. So first off, how did. Just recognize them as people, you know,
[00:02:57] David Wilinski: It's a great question, but I think you have to look at everyone as your brother or your sister or your son or your daughter and how you would look at them and what it looks like. I think for me personally, you could see what.
[00:03:08] My life has started to spiral out of control. And so how did I get loved, uh, people from my church, my family were like, Hey, we see this spiral of progression and we love you. And we don't want to see you go down this. And so how do you do that? Like, what does that look like? But, uh, I think that's the grand question.
[00:03:25] I would say that every single case is different. And I think that's the first thing that you have to put in your mind is knowing that every situation is truly different. Not putting it in, you know, one plus one equals two. Uh, if it was that easy, it would bottle it and sell it to other people, you know, but it really does take a relationship from those standpoints.
[00:03:44] And so, uh, one is knowing that every situation is different and two is just loving them where they're at, not where you want them to be, not where you expect them to be, not where they should be, but where they're at. And I think that's a big, big part of it.
[00:03:58] Jon Miller: Yeah. Loving him more than what does it look like to love people where they're at?
[00:04:03] What does that look like?
[00:04:04] David Wilinski: Great
[00:04:05] question. Uh, and everyone's at a different place in life. Uh, but I think I, especially with addicts, what happens is sometimes their sin or sometimes their, their, their bondage that's holding them back is very obvious. You know, someone was struggling with, let's say a. Anger or, uh, I don't want to say lust, but you know, lust or things like that.
[00:04:28] It's kind of hard to see. You don't necessarily see it, but like if someone's in an active addiction, it's pretty obvious and can be seen pretty well right up front. And so, um, It's a great, how do you love someone where they're at? Uh, I think you have to allow the grace truth and time aspect of it. Uh, if you remove grace, it becomes legalism.
[00:04:47] And if you remove truth, it becomes enablement. And so there is a healthy boundary that you have to have of all of those different aspects of grace truth and time. And I think that's what it looks like of loving someone where they're at a is grace truth and time. Uh, people think because they have a conversation or address an issue, uh, that they'll never use again.
[00:05:07] Uh, why would they not do those things to me, but, uh, it's not a personal choice. It's not like a personal activity. Um, it's a struggle that they have to find out on their own and the way that they do that is by you loving them. Hey, I love you. Hey, I remember this. Hey, I love this about you. Uh, Hey, I would love to be able to do this.
[00:05:28] Hey, I have seen this happening. Mm. Hmm.
[00:05:33] Clayton Eddleman: That's really interesting. I think when it comes to even addiction, it's a little bit different than kind of the love beyond that we've talked about on this podcast, you know, where it's maybe oftentimes looking at somebody who has a different perspective or even background than you, but this is like, if you are somebody who's struggling with addiction, it's almost like you kind of have to be open and receptive to receiving that love as well.
[00:05:58] And so, David, I don't know for you, like what, when you're working with people and you're trying to love beyond those who are struggling with addictions and you're getting a lot of resistance or pushback, like what would you say to someone or how would you even respond to somebody who is like, nah, I'm good.
[00:06:15] Like, I don't, I don't need any help. I've got this under control. Like, how do you go about
[00:06:22] David Wilinski: Yeah. Think about how hard it is to change yourself. And so how do you force somebody else to change it? I think the key component in there is time. Uh, it was kind of talking about earlier with grace truth and time.
[00:06:33] Uh, but just allowing them to come to their own conclusions is probably one of the better things. Like, well, I don't know. It's really hard and it's such a dangerous topic. You know, addiction is not like. It's life-threatening. I mean, literally it's taking lives every single day. And so how do you give someone that time, but, uh, you can't force someone to change.
[00:06:51] And so you can only give them the options and the consistency and love is what allows them to have those options. For me, I had people like my father, uh, or my people from my church who gave me the time to figure those things out, but knew where I could turn when I needed help. And that was a huge part of me getting the help that I need.
[00:07:10] Right, right.
[00:07:12] Jon Miller: You keep talking about your own story. So you you've battled addiction as well in your life. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and, and how you were set free
[00:07:22] from that?
[00:07:23] David Wilinski: Yeah. Um, for me, it kind of starts as a younger kid, uh, but I was, uh, abused as a kid and, uh, had moved around a lot and, uh, find the easiest way to fit in was with drugs and started smoking marijuana and using that probably around 14.
[00:07:40] And, uh, I'll never forget when my mom had open heart surgery. Uh, she was prescribed pain pills as per the doctor and per the surgery, especially the extensive surgery. And, uh, I snuck into her medicine cabinet and took, uh, opiates, uh, some of the painkillers and there was just a natural attraction, uh, for that to me, uh, sometimes trauma abuse activates those same receptors as pain abuse.
[00:08:05] And so it was. Love for me. And, uh, by the age of 18, 19, I was addicted to Oxycontin. I had to have it, or I get sick. And then where I was at and the Midwest area of Chicago. Land area, uh, it's actually cheaper and easier and more accessible to get heroin than it was to get prescription drugs. And so I started using heroin and that's when my life really, really spiraled out of control.
[00:08:31] Um, you know, when you're in an addiction like that, it is actually an addiction where you have to have it or you get sick. Wow. And when, I mean sick, I mean like the worst flu you've ever had. Time's ten with no sleep anxiety. Like you literally feel like you're going to die without them and so I thought that that stage of the addiction, it was no longer about getting high or numbing the pain.
[00:08:54] It was about feeling normal. And, uh, that's what happened for me for the last three years of my addiction was just trying to feel normal. And, uh, luckily from that, uh, someone from my church was like, Hey, how are you doing? Like, I'm doing good. And she's like, no, she's like, Hey, how are you feeling? I'm like, man, I'm, I'm feeling really bad.
[00:09:14] I'm feeling really defeated. I'm feeling really lonely. And she's like, do you ever think about getting help? I'm like, yeah, sure. I think about how all the time, but what does that look like? And she'd give me a couple of different resources and, um, Teen challenge is one of them. And so I had went to a detox center and then I went to teen challenge at 22 years old.
[00:09:32] So, wow.
[00:09:34] Jon Miller: So you actually went through the program
[00:09:36] at teen challenge?
[00:09:36] David Wilinski: Yeah, I was a graduate of the program at teen challenge. I entered the program when I was 22, uh, just a total full-blown intravenous heroin addict, and, um, really was lost in life. I had no idea where I was going to go. Uh, they say, you know, The only people that make it out of heroin, addictions are in jails or dead.
[00:09:56] Wow. And it's really true. And. I can't tell you how many friends that I have personally lost and have seen other guys lost us going through the program and working there. But yeah, I was a graduate of the program. I needed that discipline. I needed a little bit more a yearlong residential residential program.
[00:10:15] You know, I didn't get like that in 30 or 90 days. And so there was more for me that needed again, the recipe is different for everyone. Yeah. Some people just need to be told, Hey, we miss the old you, Hey, some people need to be. You know, this is affecting your family. This is affecting your work. Uh, some people need 30 day or out patient.
[00:10:34] Uh, but I think that's the stigma that gets attached. It's like, there's one recipe for everyone. And the hard part is that it really is different for every single person. Yeah.
[00:10:44] Clayton Eddleman: That's. Yeah, that's just a crazy story in general. I'm thankful for you sharing it. I'm thankful for just your experience even, um, when you were going through teen challenge and, you know, as somebody who's participating in the program, how did you witness on like firsthand account people loving, beyond, and really meeting you where you're at and going above and beyond?
[00:11:09] David Wilinski: It's a good question. As far as, uh, The love that you feel there, but. You know, teen challenge is a bit different than other rehabilitation programs as being a Christian program and having that love. And so you actually go through the program with other people. And so I would say the way that I really experienced the love was through the other people I was going through with, uh, normally people who come from those types of addictions, those type of backgrounds don't necessary.
[00:11:33] Play well together or have their own hurts. And so they interfere with each other, but, uh, I actually had a roommate who became my best friend and my best man at my wedding. And I still talk to him every day. Uh, we went through the program together. We worked there together and, uh, it's truly thankful for him, but that's where I really experienced love the first time.
[00:11:53] Uh, and that, and was like, man, maybe this is possible. Uh, maybe there is more to this than just, uh, being sober.
[00:12:01] Jon Miller: Yeah. I really. Like, I mean, I love your whole story. And is that a real statistic by the way that most heroin addicts don't make it out?
[00:12:13] David Wilinski: Well, there's an old saying that with heroin, you either have one big problem or no problems at all.
[00:12:19] And so, like, I don't know the statistics of it, but I do know that the overdose rate is sky high. These past few years, this was 14 years ago. 15 years ago. And so, uh, I do know that with fentanyl introduced into all of these different drugs that the overdose rate is through the roof. I don't have an actual statistic for you, but I do know that it is pretty high.
[00:12:40] And the reality is when you're in that type of, uh, addiction, uh, there really isn't too many other options besides death institutions, uh, or getting clean. Wow.
[00:12:51] Jon Miller: Right. And something I think is so important about your story that really helps us here with loving beyond our lines. Is that it wasn't just like, oh, I'm going to you, didn't just start doing drugs because like, oh, I want to be, I want to be addicted.
[00:13:06] Or I want this for my life. You, you went through some trauma in your life that, that kind of led you down a path. And, and that's not, I don't think you would say that justifies doing drugs, but at the same time, Do you, do you think, do you feel like most people who are dealing with addiction have a similar, not necessarily the same background, but are dealing with trauma in their life and that's kind of why they're there?
[00:13:27] David Wilinski: I wouldn't necessarily say trauma, but I do think something, uh, there was something that drew you to that attraction of it. There was some. Appealed to you to that high of what it is. And so it doesn't, it's not always, some people just like getting high and then it turns into an addiction. But I, I, for me, this took years to get to that place.
[00:13:46] You know, I wasn't able to recognize that that's where out of my addiction stem, but as I look back now, I can see where I. Feeling less than and feeling lowly and, uh, just felt like I didn't belong or fit in. And so it was easy for me to see that years later. Uh, but in the middle of it, I, I didn't see that, but I would say there is some type of event.
[00:14:06] What we have found that is that addiction is actually a by-product of other things. So. Teen challenge at such high success rates is implementing biblical, uh, strategies and implementing a walk with Jesus implementing fellowship and, you know, using community as a whole to heal, uh, was a part of those things other than just being sober.
[00:14:27] So, um, community is a huge, huge part of as well.
[00:14:31] Clayton Eddleman: When you are just going through, um, like your time at teen teen challenge. I can just imagine that being like such a low point and maybe looking at it and saying, you know, is there a way out, like, how do I get out of this? And it's, it's awesome to hear, you know, that was your journey 15 years ago, and this is what God has done in your life since.
[00:14:53] Do you have any encouragement that you would give someone. Who is maybe not, you know, someone who's struggling with not saying anyone listening or watching this is struggling with an opioid addiction, but just anyone who's going through addiction or a dark time themselves. Like what encouragement would you give to that person?
[00:15:12] David Wilinski: It sounds so. Cheesy, but the truth is that there is hope and like, you don't have to be an addict. Like, like I understand that's where you're at now, but there is hope for you. There are many people who have been able to do it. And with those proper resources and time, like you'll be able to do it. They say sometimes until the pain of staying the same is, uh, more than.
[00:15:35] The pain of change, you know, you won't have that, but thinking about where you're at thinking about how lowly or how defeated you can be, like the change for you can be so awesome. And so I think that's one of the ways of love and beyond the lines that we can also have and helping people through those addictions.
[00:15:50] Is that just because they're in an addiction doesn't mean that they're not able to be loved. Like we can't love them that we can't be there for them. Uh, obviously having boundaries and having proper. Ways to communicate that as a good thing. But I would say first and foremost for the addict that it is possible.
[00:16:08] Like, you don't have to be like this. I'll never forget being there. Uh, when I first realized I had become addicted, uh, I wasn't able to get my drugs and I started to get sick. And I was like, man, this is like, my life is over. And, uh, and that was at a young man. I was like 20 years old. And so, uh, to see where I'm at today and seeing the sobriety, seen the blessings that God has put in my life, uh, I realized that it is possible and I've seen so many other men, uh, overcome it and women for that matter.
[00:16:37] And so, uh, my, my advice would be is that it is possible. And so you don't have to be like this forever.
[00:16:43] Jon Miller: What are some of your, you talk about people you've seen overcome, and what are some of your favorite stories of being set free from addiction that you witnessed while you're working at teen challenge?
[00:16:53] David Wilinski: There's so many, uh, there's so many, I'll just cheat and use my good buddy. Uh, and so he really wanted a relationship with his daughters. His addiction had come later on in life. He had grew up in the church and, uh, didn't actually start experimenting with drugs until he was. Uh, thirties and, uh, with some of success from coaching and, uh, real estate and things like that, uh, he began to be a partier and with that had kind of lost relationship with his daughters.
[00:17:23] And, uh, I'll never forget. I remember him. Distinctively during free times, or during those times he would just be sobbed crying. Like, God, I just want this relationship with my daughters and thought it was really broken and over. And, uh, today, as a matter of fact, they're actually in Utah together on vacation.
[00:17:41] Uh, but they talk every single day and they have such a beautiful relationship and. It took some time. Yeah, it took some work and it took some hard roads as well. Uh, I just love watching that restoration take place. Like that's my favorite. Um, my other favorite is one guy has come in and they're just so lowly.
[00:17:59] They, they so beat up there so they won't even smile or laugh. And uh, like two, three weeks, maybe a month in the program, they started to get a little color back in their face. They may put on a little bit. Because they're eating a little bit better. Uh, but they start to get their smile back and like, that's my truly, one of my favorite things is watching guys get their smiles back.
[00:18:20] Jon Miller: man, that is so good. David, like, I'm, uh, I'm just starting to get to know you. Um, and you're starting to work here at Central. You just started like about a month ago and, uh, It's so obvious that you have a passion just for people who are hurting and for caring for them. W how do, how do we all get that?
[00:18:38] You know, like, I don't think that should be abnormal, but you have. This brilliance about it. Like you've been through it and you love all the people who are going through it and it doesn't, it, you don't think twice, I can tell you don't think twice about loving somebody and who's, who's struggling. How do we all get there?
[00:18:57] You know? Cause I think it's really easy for us to think twice, you know, like, oh, mostly because I think that time component, we don't want to spend the time, even if we won't say that out loud. And I, and I just got done working through Galatians. And it talks about when you're dealing with a brother or sister, who's struggling with, you know, anything that's, you know, of the flesh or, or who is just struggling.
[00:19:21] It says very importantly, you must spend time with them, help them carry the burden. And I love the verse because it's like in Galatians chapter five. And it says, if you think you don't have enough time to do. You're wrong because you're not that important. You're not that important. Doesn't specify which person you're dealing with, who needs the time.
[00:19:41] It says you're not that important to go spend that time with them. So how do we all get to that place where we realize we're not that important? We can go and love that person. We can spend as much time as possible with them.
[00:19:53] David Wilinski: I wish I had a recipe for that for everyone, but I would first and foremost say is that we all have different gifts.
[00:19:59] And so like, there's all different things, but how do we be able to love people beyond that? I wish I had a direct answer for you, but I would think is just remembering how much you've been forgiven. And so, uh, those who have been forgiven much love much. And so I just think that, you know, your sin may not be an addiction, but it may be food.
[00:20:19] Uh, it may be anger. It may be pride. Yeah. And so if you don't know what it is, you could ask your partner or friend and they'll tell you, but there, there are all those things. And so for addiction to be able to love people, pass that, or, or whatever, separating them from it. Uh, there's just a little bit more obvious.
[00:20:36] And so again, I think that just being able to see them as your brother, as your is their son, uh, as your friend or family, uh, really allows you to love them where they're at and love further.
[00:20:49] Jon Miller: It's a mind shift. It's changing your point of view. What'd you say that? I don't know.
[00:20:54] David Wilinski: Sure. I mean, how would you want someone to treat your son or your, your brother?
[00:20:59] How would you want to be treated by someone if you were in those spots? And, um, I just think that I I've seen the success that can happen. I've seen lives dramatically change as long as, as well as my own. I just want everybody else to experience that. Like that's, that's my excitement is knowing where the bondage that I've had in my life, knowing where.
[00:21:23] How low I was, uh, and knowing where God can pull you out of you and like what God can do in those moments and with the life that I thought was truly over, um, at such a young age. And so, um, I just, I want to see that for other people, I'm like a life cheerleader. Like I, I just, I, I really love that someone could think so lowly or that it can't be done and then watching the steps and watching it take place.
[00:21:48] And so I think just getting excited for those things. I like what you said, you know, you do have time, like, you know, there is time to make, uh, for those situations in that love. And I think that's a big part of it. Hmm.
[00:22:00] Clayton Eddleman: David, with like everything you're talking about, and Jonathan mentioned too, that you had just started here at Central and your role is the cares pastor, which, you know, they're like, oh, what does the care's pastor?
[00:22:14] Um, but I mean, really your job is to, to help. Get this help and, uh, and seek the care that they need. Are there resources that are readily available right now, or will be maybe, um, that people who are listening or watching to this are like, Hey, maybe I'm going through something or I know somebody who's going through somebody or something.
[00:22:35] Um, what is what's out there for them?
[00:22:38] David Wilinski: There's all kinds of resources that we have that we can use. Uh, some of those that I can tell you off the top of my head, uh, is celebrate recovery for one. And so this is a meeting that meets every Monday night and being able to have hurts hangups and habits address.
[00:22:55] This is not just a drug addiction. This is all types of addictions. This is anything that would separate you from God. And so this could be a sexual, this could be, uh, you know, food. This could be drugs, alcohol, all those different things, anything that was. Habit or hangup, uh, that would separate you from it.
[00:23:14] And so, uh, celebrate recovery is a well renowned program and it's not just done here as well as central, but it's in many other churches and it has incorporated a great 12 step with God, uh, being able to help that we have a program called PALS. That's parents of addicted, loved ones. Being able to have a resource for people, uh, who are going through with a loved one who's addicted, I think is a huge part of recovery, a huge part of recovery for the individual and for the family, you see addiction, doesn't just affect one person.
[00:23:44] It affects the whole family. And I think that's one of the misconceptions that addicts have is that it's just my life. Uh, you know, it's, I'm not affecting everyone else, but I can think of those. And those times where my mom and my dad were up late, uh, worried if I was still alive, worried where I was at, um, seen me in different programs or in jail or what that looked like as if I'm going to make it.
[00:24:08] And so, uh, I think this is a great resource of pals. Awesome courses that we have called Boundaries, uh, different boundaries in life. Uh, it can also be good for parents or a family of loved ones, but also yourself being able to set up those different boundaries, but there are all kinds of different access points that you can have for help.
[00:24:27] And I think that the important thing is that you have to find what works best for you. Yeah. Are you looking for a long-term short-term or are you looking for inpatient, outpatient? Are you looking for a detox? Are you looking for a residential program? Uh, are you looking for just simply. Do you need to be in community with someone, uh, do you need to be at church, uh, and having the word of God put into you and the love, um, you know, w what is that for you?
[00:24:52] That will work.
[00:24:54] Jon Miller: Yeah. And what we'll do is we'll make sure to include the link to the care's page in the, in the bio of these podcasts. And so you can find that, but I think something you really pointed out too, is like, wherever you are, if you're not in the valley and you aren't able to do it, there, there are resources out there for you.
[00:25:09] And for example, celebrate recovery is a national thing, right? It's all over the place. So, you know, just Google search it. Hopefully you can find something near you that that can help because that's a big. Of that is community. Um, you're, you're in it together. And you talk about your friend, uh, who your roommate right at, at a teen challenge that you were in it together.
[00:25:27] And I think that was a huge from what I can hear impact and, and, and helping you get through your addiction. Absolutely.
[00:25:33] David Wilinski: Uh, I think community is such a big part of it. Uh, uh, you know, you can go on the suburb, recovery locator and just type in your zip code and find any, uh, All the different meetings in your areas.
[00:25:44] But, uh, for, for me personally, that community of love and friendship that I had, that wasn't based upon an addiction or money or what I could do for him. Uh, but what we could do together, uh, was really the big part of it. Um, there's an experiment with rats that were given cocaine, uh, just a rat in a cage with just offered cocaine.
[00:26:04] And so the rat would have cocaine, water, and regular water, and it would drink so much cocaine water that it would have ended up killing himself. And then they put a rat in a cage with other rats and other wheels and cheese and rides and toys and different things. And the rat would never, ever choose the cocaine water.
[00:26:23] Wow. Because it knew it would kill him. And so the community of it is such a big part. And that's why celebrate recovery or there's different programs where you can go and meet with other people, uh, and, and experience that you're not alone. That other people have same or other things that they struggle with as well.
[00:26:40] Uh, and that there is freedom in those things is a very, very big part of the community. Hmm.
[00:26:46] Clayton Eddleman: Um, I think when it comes to community, like I heard this at a church I worked for years ago is, you know, you don't have to tell everyone everything, but you got to tell somebody something, um, you know, kind of talking back to like, Hey, not everyone has to know everything about you, but you gotta tell somebody about what's going on in your life.
[00:27:04] So when it comes to community, I would imagine that it's pretty hard, especially when you talk about just even addiction or shame, like you're talking about sin. Uh, shame is a huge aspect in that. I was like, man, I don't really want to talk about this with anyone, but I mean, how have you seen that kind of play out and, and what would you say to somebody who's maybe thinking like, no, there's no way I could talk with somebody about this.
[00:27:30] Like I had too much shame about.
[00:27:33] David Wilinski: Yeah, guilt and shame is a big part of it. Uh, there's a saying, when you carry a hammer of guilt and shame, uh, everything looks like. Um, and so when you have that overtaking you and identifying yourself as guilt and shame, then everything you do starts to look like a nail.
[00:27:49] Like everything you do is just another way for you to beat yourself up with it. And so you have to talk to somebody. I think that's the way that you get the hammer out of your hand as being able to get those things off. I have a really cheap. Way to explain that if you want to hear it. Yeah.
[00:28:04] Jon Miller: We were just talking
[00:28:04] about rats, so it makes sense.
[00:28:07] Get the cheese
[00:28:09] David Wilinski: I was connected with dots. So there is a movie that we don't have to name a, that is a rap battle. And before this rap battle takes place, the star of the show is going against the guy. And he like lists off all these things. That's wrong with him. Like, he's, he's poor. He works at a factory.
[00:28:29] His girl cheated on him. And like, when he goes around, he has nothing to say. Like, because he's so embarrassed by everything that was said about him. And so the next time he goes, he goes up and he's like, Hey, I do. Uh, at a factory, Hey, my girl did cheat on me. Hey, I, uh, impor he's like, but go ahead and tell him something about me.
[00:28:47] They don't know now. And like the guy had nothing to accuse him of and tempt him with. And it's the same thing with the devil. Like when you're able to get those things out, when you're able to communicate those things and release those and talk about them. There's freedom there for you. It says confess your faults before one another so that you may be.
[00:29:04] Uh, like that is a big part of being able to confess those things and get them out. So they're not identifying you that you're not being told a lie and accused of those things. And so, uh, I would encourage you to get those things out and tell somebody maybe not in a rap battle, but, uh, just in general, being able to tell somebody.
[00:29:23] Hopefully that wasn't too cheesy, but
[00:29:24] Jon Miller: I didn't think it was cheesy at all. I mean, since we were talking about rats, I thought he kept saying rat battle. And I was like at rad.
[00:29:32] David Wilinski: That's a different podcast.
[00:29:35] Jon Miller: I was like movies with rats and it movies with red Ratatouille. That's when you got that as a great movie, that was a great movie.
[00:29:40] I like the nothing to do with this, but, um,
[00:29:44] Clayton Eddleman: my mind went to the, uh, the great mouse detective that was like a go-to movie for me as a kid. And I don't think I've seen
[00:29:49] Jon Miller: them. Yeah, so much here. Um, so much to reflect on about just being with people who are dealing with addiction, uh, about spending time with them about, you know, not shaming them, that they are.
[00:30:04] I think the reality too is like sometimes we think shame is going to help somebody like, man, you should be ashamed of yourself for what you've put yourself in. And I think the reality that you're talking about is. They're already dealing with shame and that's making it worse. It's not helping in the first place.
[00:30:20] Like, have you had any experience with that? Where like, I think that's our first reaction is like, well, that's a sin and you're doing it wrong and it's your own fault you're there? Does that
[00:30:30] David Wilinski: help? Yes. So that's the, one of the big misconceptions that if you guilt them or shame them into changing that it's going to cause a lasting effect, but you know, think about how, when some one shame, shame, shame, do you like?
[00:30:43] Uh, I would say. I don't know how to say this. I don't want to categorize all addicts, but if you would think some of them can be already rebellious, that may be why they're in this state. All right. So like, if you tell me something, uh, I may think about where. And how much further I can go with it, if you like, if you think I'm already bad.
[00:31:05] I think that was part of something that happened for me. I grew up, I was told I had learning disabilities. I was told I had things wrong with me. And so I'm like, oh, you think something's wrong with me? Like, I, I will show you how much is wrong with me. Like, I will show you how, um, bad I can be. I guess you could say.
[00:31:21] And so, uh, I don't think the shame and guilt thing is a way to do it. I do think there's a thing. That is a good component of saying, Hey, when you do this, it makes me feel like this. And that's about me. It's not necessarily about you, but not used a shame, but as a loving care and concern. And so you have to know the difference between, um, beating someone up and building someone up.
[00:31:43] And so what does that look like? But I would say the shame route, uh, isn't the most successful for getting people to change.
[00:31:52] Jon Miller: Role play that is that weird. Like Sam, Sam, a person dealing with like addiction and like, you know me, well, you're a friend of mine and I have some kind of addiction. I don't really know what it was, but how would you, how would you confront me or, or what's the word that is often used?
[00:32:07] Like. Intervention intervention.
[00:32:10] Clayton Eddleman: Yeah. This is an intervention. I
[00:32:13] David Wilinski: don't know. It's still an intervention. I would say that you wanted to leave to like the professionals, but I can tell you how, okay. Yes. Someone from my church had talked to me and she, when she was like, Hey, how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm good.
[00:32:25] It's the third, the fourth, the fifth question. That really is important. Hey, how is your mental health? Hey, how are you feeling about yourself? Hey, what do you believe about yourself? Right. Well, how are we asking those questions? And what does that look like? And I think one of the things that she recognizes that I had been, you know, in and out of treatment, I had been into jail and, uh, had different things falling apart in my life.
[00:32:47] And she was like, Hey, I remember when you were really happy. Uh, I remember when you used to be really excited. Uh, do you want that? Do you miss that? Cause I miss that inside of you. Uh, and so it's not, what's wrong with you. It's what's happened, I think is the big question that you could ask and role play with some.
[00:33:08] Jon Miller: Yeah. And I think he just brought up a big flaw in my own thinking in that I'm like, oh, I need to be a part of the big intervention. He said, no, you need to leave that to the professionals. This is more about asking questions and just genuinely caring about them and not just stopping at, Hey, how are you doing?
[00:33:22] And like, oh, I'm good. Okay. Hey, see you next Wednesday. Hopefully at church sometime, you know, like it's, it's about the fifth, fourth, fifth, six questions you were talking about. Those are such great
[00:33:31] David Wilinski: questions. Th that is a big part of it. Uh, again, having the revelation come to somebody that it's their own thing, that they want to hope that their own thing that they want to change, I think is a big part of it.
[00:33:44] Uh, you telling them they already know and like, yeah. And so it's already there, but getting them to recognize it, look at it and. I think is the key to success in those moments. Uh, not that you can't have an intervention with your family or friends, but you know, you want to be careful that it's done successfully, that you're not making a further distance between you and your loved one or friend.
[00:34:06] And so, uh, how are you doing that to the best of your abilities is, uh, I think just personally loving them and asking those questions and allowing them to make that choice. There's different types of addicts, there's functioning addicts and there's addicts who have lost all control. And so, um, being able to meet them where they're at, but also knowing the severity of it, you know, it's life or death.
[00:34:27] It really, it really can be. And so it's not about making the emotional decisions, uh, but taking the time to love them through it is, is really the key to it.
[00:34:38] Clayton Eddleman: Hmm. Yeah. When I even like the question. You know, saying not what's wrong with you. Cause that seems kind of accusatory, like, Hey, something clearly wrong, like what's wrong, but asking the question where it's more introspective and you're giving them a chance to tell their story is what happened to you?
[00:34:56] Um, I just, that just, that kind of changed my perspective even of like, oh yeah, like. What if I just asked, you know, what happened? Cause then you're giving that person to share their stories, share kind of where they're at in that moment. So personally, thank you for, for sharing that, that, that helps me.
[00:35:12] David Wilinski: And that's something I recently kind of seen as well, but how impactful it can be too, because there's a story we all have. And so, uh, what does it look like? What does your heart shapers, like? What, what has made your heart get to that way? What does that look like? And then what are your source spots that we could have and work through?
[00:35:28] What are those things that has shaped you? No, man can consistently behave in a way that is inconsistent with how he perceives himself. Wow. And so say that again. That's fantastic. Uh, and so, uh, no man can consistently behave in a way that is inconsistent with how he perceives himself. And so for me in my life, I believe that I was no good.
[00:35:49] I believe that I was a failure. I believe that I had a learning disability or that the abuse that happened to me was because I deserved it or, uh, There was nothing good for me. And so I made choices that reaffirm that. And so that was part of the part of recovery. For me, that changed my life was realizing that there was more to my life, that I had a plan that God had a plan and there was a purpose for my life, uh, that there was good things that can happen.
[00:36:13] And, you know, through that process, I was able to meet my wife and I was able to get married. And, uh, I now take care of my father. I became a pastor I, uh, supervised and directed the program. You know, the different aspects of realizing that people love me, that I can be loved a show on my choices and the same thing of the opposite way.
[00:36:32] When people feel that there are no good or not good enough. And those moments.
[00:36:38] Jon Miller: This has been so good, David, like, I am learning so much from you in these this time, and I think we need a wrap up at this point, but, uh, thank you so much for being part of this podcast. We have so much to think about, I think, from this conversation that we've had, um, thank you for sharing your story and be willing to do that.
[00:36:54] And, and thank you for investing your life after you found freedom in the lives of others so that they can to find freedom. I think that is so, I mean,
[00:37:04] David Wilinski: Yeah, thank you. Uh, you know, someone had done it for me and, uh, I love that I get to do it for other people. And so I would encourage you that if you are out there and you are struggling, there is help and there is hope for you.
[00:37:15] And so do what you have to do to find it. Um,
[00:37:20] Jon Miller: Yeah. And even if right now, this is the first time you've heard it in a while, you are loved, you are worth loving. Um, we strongly believe that here that's, that's kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is that we believe all people are worth loving and worth being loved.
[00:37:34] Um, and we want you to know that even if it's just this random guy that you've never met before speaking on the other side of the screen, that maybe you've never, you'll never see. Um, I want you to know that and I strongly believe that you are worth. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being part of the beyond the lines podcast today.
[00:37:53] Uh, Hey, if you enjoy this podcast or, or I've enjoyed past podcasts, give us a rating on apple podcasts. That's the big place where ratings go. If you're not listening on apple podcasts, you know, Just for us and share it with your friends. We'd love for other people to get to know this. If this has been helpful for you in your own life, share with your friends, that they might be helpful with them.
[00:38:13] Um, yeah. Anything else?
[00:38:15] Clayton Eddleman: Clayton. Ah, man, if you're interested to learn more about central, you can go to our website centralaz.com. We've also got lots of resources there. Do we have a carers page? Am I correct? We do.
[00:38:26] David Wilinski: It's central cares and we have a production. We have resources. Topics, uh, we're in the middle of revamping it, but we have topics and with actual practical things and steps and resources that we can have, we have a talk to someone if you need more help.
[00:38:38] And so there are great ways and resources for us to have on the page.
[00:38:42] Clayton Eddleman: Perfect. Yeah. So if you need those resources or, you know, somebody who could benefit from this resources, I would encourage you to check out our website and yeah, that's kinda all I got for us.
[00:38:52] Jon Miller: It'll be in the biography of this podcast and on the YouTube and the notes, wherever you are.
[00:38:56] It will be in the notes. Well, thank you everybody for joining the beyond the line podcast. We love you. Thank you for being here now. Go love beyond your lines.
[00:39:03] Clayton Eddleman: So you guys.