Native American Heritage and History has long been ignored in the history of the Western world. Native and Indigenous people from all over North and South America have suffered and lost their culture through colonization. Today we get the opportunity to hear the person perspective and history of Mikhail and Charissa Sundust and what they are learning from their own native heritage and parents.
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
Native American Heritage and History has long been ignored in the history of the Western world. Native and Indigenous people from all over North and South America have suffered and lost their culture through colonization. Today we get the opportunity to hear the person perspective and history of Mikhail and Charissa Sundust and what they are learning from their own native heritage and parents.
Get access to exclusive content and watch the video podcast on our YouTube! www.youtube.com/channel/UC6sLXxSC0KKjrqL1cq6080g
[00:00:00] Well, welcome to the beyond the lines podcast in a world filled with so much division. We just want to do something about that. We all have these lines that we draw in our lives that we just feel like that's our limit. We can't listen past that line. We can't love past the line. We can't understand someone who is on the other side of the line, whatever that line is.
[00:00:17] But our goal with this podcast is to treat all people with the dignity that they deserve, even if we disagree with them. My name is Jonathan and I'm your designated listener here today on the podcast. And we have some incredible people here today with us in McHale and Carissa, sun dust. Thank you so much for being here tonight.
[00:00:33] I'm glad you're here. Thanks for that. Awesome. I've had just this incredible opportunity to get to know you guys a little bit over the past year, and I've just learned so much from you. So I'm glad you're here and that's why I wanted you on the podcast. Um, you both come from indigenous tribes in the Phoenix, Arizona area, and, uh, you have so much wisdom to share.
[00:00:54] So I'm glad you're here and I'm excited to learn from you. Wow. You know, how you feeling tonight? I feel about this your first podcast, I guess, a little nervous because I've never been on a podcast before, but I'm looking forward to it and I always enjoy our conversations. So I'm just looking forward.
[00:01:12] Awesome. Well, you did mention before we started recording that you've, you've recorded a podcast before with your friend, not online, not anywhere it exists. It's in, it's in the trash bin on my computer. So you have tons of experience with podcasts is what I'm hearing. Yeah. Yeah. I've been in radio for years.
[00:01:34] So awesome. Well, I'm glad you here. I know this is out of your comfort zone, but I know you have so much wisdom to share. So I think anything we can learn from you tonight is as well worth it. So thank you for being here. One of the reasons I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today is because we get to learn more about the indigenous perspective in America.
[00:01:53] But before we begin, if I understand. Correctly, one of the biggest misconceptions, uh, that those who don't have any knowledge about indigenous tribes in, in the Western area, right? Is that they're all the same. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. So I want to start there. That's just not true.
[00:02:12] I want to learn more about what tribes do you guys are. And what that means to you and what that means for your experience and how that can be different. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Uh, initially kit the Cine boss's teen Kiani uh, it's.
[00:02:35] So I am Navajo and name is Carissa sun dust, and that's our traditional introduction. So we always introduce ourselves with our four clans starting with our mother's clan because we're a matrilineal system. And then we'll also share our father's mother's. Our maternal grandfather's clan and our paternal grandfather's clan, and then also our place of origin on the reservation.
[00:02:59] So, um, I, I choose to say stop beacon, which is where my paternal grandmother is from mostly because that's where I grew up a lot of the time. I didn't have the chance to know my maternal grandmother. And she's actually from knots it's on, which is Navajo mountain. Um, so sometimes I'll use those interchangeably, but, um, those are the areas that I'm from on the Navajo nation.
[00:03:22] Um, so clans are really important. Um, kinship is really important. And so we identify ourselves in this way so that we can. So, um, who we are and if there's other Navajos in the audience, it's a way to create a connection so that people know whether or not I'm related to them in a certain way. So that's really important whenever we're introducing ourselves, especially in a public setting.
[00:03:47] So, although there's not people in front of us, there will be people listening to this. So it's very proper for me to introduce myself that way. Awesome. So the Navajo nation, um, we're we call ourselves dinner, we're located in north Eastern Arizona. Um, we are the largest tribe, both in population and in land base.
[00:04:08] So our reservation. 27,000 square miles, which is about the size of West Virginia. Wow. Um, and then I'm located in there's. There's different agencies. So there's Eastern agencies, central agency and the Western agency and I'm from the Western agency. So that's just a little bit of like, um, an overview of like my tribe and where I'm from, but I'll let McKell introduce himself.
[00:04:35] Yeah. Thanks. Uh, so yeah, my name is Miquel best. I am and P posh and those two tribes and that's on my father's side. Uh, those two tribes are, um, more commonly known as Pima and Maricopa. So we have Pima county, Maricopa county in, in Arizona, but, um, like Christmas. The Navajo word for Navajo, what they call themselves as Denae.
[00:05:02] And so the PMO, what we call ourselves as oh, done, and there's, there's a few different autumn tribes. And then, um, Maricopa, they call themselves posh. And so that's, uh, that's where I get, uh, my, uh, heritage from on my dad's side. He was both occupied autumn and pea patch, uh, from the healer river Indian community.
[00:05:24] So. For, you know, listeners from Arizona or anybody who has Google maps, you can look up just south of Phoenix is the healer river Indian community. And it stretches all the way from the west side and Levine to the east side, south of like queen Creek and the Senate sent San tan valley. Thank you. Sorry. I sent 10, uh, mountains.
[00:05:49] So that's healer river. I'm from the west end, south of Levine. Uh, that's where my father and his family is from. And on my mom's side, I am, uh, central European descent. Uh, mostly check like the Czech Republic and probably like a little bit of like Scandinavian blood and German in there as well. Yeah. So that's, that's my heritage.
[00:06:11] Um, from both my parents. Is there anything else? I think that's very fascinating and, um, really important for us to know and understand as we are kind of approaching this. So they, you can't speak for all tribes in the us, like that's impossible, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there are 574 federally recognized tribes and it's important to say federally recognized.
[00:06:34] Yeah. 574 is a big number, but there was even more than. You know, uh, there is more than that. There are a lot of state recognized tribes. And when we talk about state state recognized and federal federally recognized, what's important to keep in mind. Talking about a political entity, like a government, like a city or a county or a state, right?
[00:06:53] These are tribes they're they're political entities. Um, and they have, their heritage is attached to that. Um, one example is here in Hilary or in Arizona, we have the healer river, Indian community, salt river nation, and those four reservations or political governments. Um, they all have. People living there that that's where they're from.
[00:07:19] So you've got the done out them, um, salt river. They often call them on cause they're from salt river. Um, so. Yeah, 574. We definitely can't speak for all. I can't even speak for my tribal loan. You know, I can only speak for myself and my experience, um, as an indigenous person and same goes for Chrissa. I wanted to also mention that, uh, there are 22 tribes in Arizona, so 574 across the country, 22 in Arizona.
[00:07:48] And, um, some of them are quite small. They don't all have land bases, meaning like reservations where they can, you know, put up, but they. But they all have some form of government and a tie to their indigenous heritage. Okay. That's what I was, that was my kind of next question or up is like they have some kind of government or, um, some way to govern their, their, their people.
[00:08:11] Yes. Like our own nation. Correct. Um, I would love to hear more about, um, for you guys specifically, you spoke really well that you only could really speak to your own experience even within your tribe. Right. Which makes total sense. None of us, I can't speak for all, you know, I don't even know what I am, honestly, but I've never taken like a 21 in me or anything.
[00:08:31] So I have like no really reference to my heritage. I kept, but I can't speak of everybody who looks like me or my, even for my, just my own nuclear family, like my mom and dad, like, I can't speak for them. So you only could speak for yourself and your own experience, right? Yeah. I mean, it's just like saying I can't speak for all Christians, you know, and you can't speak for all Christians.
[00:08:51] I mean, we all have our own experience. Definitely. So I'd love to hear more about how you were raised personally and what your child hood was like. Like, did you go to public schools or were you, uh, at schools, just for indigenous tribe, uh, P uh, kids, or were you raised on the tribes reservation? I think that's, there's a different situation for everybody.
[00:09:11] So I want to hear more about your own situation and experience if you are willing to share it. Yeah. Um, I'll start first. So I grew up on. I grew up in grand falls. So it's very, it's like right next to the border of the reservation, um, 30 minutes away from Flagstaff. Um, so my parents were actually in ministry when I was younger.
[00:09:36] So my dad was a pastor and my mom, um, you know, as a pastor, his wife and she did like Sunday school and everything. So, um, when we were growing up, he would move a lot and change different to different churches and, uh, So grand falls was the one when I was younger that we moved to and that he was pastoring.
[00:09:55] So I lived there for a good amount of my childhood. So I was on the reservation there. And however, um, because it's only about 30 minutes away from Flagstaff, we would commute into town for school. So I was still attending public schools in Flagstaff. Um, but there's an interesting dynamic when it comes to border towns.
[00:10:16] Um, they're, they're, they're still. It's still prejudice that's there. Um, even though, um, Yeah. So there's a good population of Navajo Hopi, um, hawala pie who live in Flagstaff, but it's really difficult sometimes to live there because there's heavy prejudice, um, that comes with being an in border town. Um, and then in addition to just, um, living in grand falls, I would go back to my grandmother's house, um, often.
[00:10:47] So I had a significant amount of my childhood at her house as well. So, um, Yeah, I would say that a lot of my childhood was on the reservation, but I did have my education in Flagstaff. And then eventually towards the end of elementary, my parents managed to move us into Flagstaff. So then I started living in the border town, um, and sort of experiencing more of like what that diamond would, that, what that dynamic was like.
[00:11:15] Uh, 'cause uh, if, you know, if like stuff it's very affluent. I mean, there's a lot of people who live there who are very, um, well off and the. There's a definite, um, divide, like a social class divide there. Um, and unless you live there, you don't really see it, but once you're in the classroom, you definitely can tell like the students that you become friends with versus the people who don't want to be friends with you.
[00:11:44] Um, so I had a. I mean, I, I was friends with a lot of different students, but I would say though, the majority of my friends were Navajo. Um, and a lot of them were, they either lived in bike staff or they bused in from, um, loop, which is a nearby town. Um, so that a lot of my friends came from that area loops on the reservation.
[00:12:05] Yeah. Loop is on the reservation. It's just like 20 minutes away from grand falls. So it's very close to where I was, um, growing up there on the reservation. But yeah, I was heavily influenced by the church as well, but like I said, my parents were, um, in ministry, so I wasn't raised traditionally. Um, so that a lot of that knowledge is sort of lost on me.
[00:12:28] And it's something that I've, I'm trying to relearn and reclaim now that I'm older. And I have that ability to like ask people, um, More in depth questions about that. Um, and definitely the Christianity or the, the context of Christianity that I grew up in was very conservative, which taught me that my culture was bad, that it was evil.
[00:12:54] Um, and that it was something that I shouldn't embrace. And so it was really hard to like, have that. Sort of pulling on me because I personally saw the beauty in my culture. I saw the significance in my culture, and I think a lot of that has to do with my dad because even though he was a pastor, he was really good at giving us cultural teachings.
[00:13:17] And one significant one is the idea of rising before the sun and running towards east, um, in the, in the dinette way, that was a way that you would get up and start your day and, um, pray to the holy people and just, just start everything in a good way. Um, but the way my dad would teach us would say, you know, this is a significant part of your culture.
[00:13:45] You need to wake up and go running. Um, and he would say it in a way that she's like, no, we need to acknowledge that God has given us a new day. Wow. And that we need to like, to be thankful for that every day. And so he always like managed to like strike a balance between, um, Maintaining our cultural ways, but also re reinforcing a lot of biblical teachings that he wanted us to know.
[00:14:12] So I was really grateful to have that balance, but it was really difficult because when I got into native spaces, it was like, I didn't know enough to be in that space. Um, In terms of like traditions and everything. So I really struggled sometimes to like fit in with, with that side, but then I'd go to like the Christians and it would be the opposite where it's like, um, no, that's too conservative.
[00:14:39] You know, I don't want to like give up everything of who I am as a native person. Um, but it was definitely something that was like, uh, pressing, uh, throughout my childhood and even into like high school and a little bit into college as well. That's a little bit about my background. Yeah. It sounds like you're living in the tension of like two different worlds and neither of them felt quite right.
[00:15:02] Yeah, definitely. Um, and it's funny, we talk, there's a phrase that, um, native people talk about and it's, it's more about the tension of living in the Western world, in the, their cultural world and it's called walking into worlds. So there's this dynamic that they talk about. But, um, yeah, for me, it was definitely not necessarily.
[00:15:23] It was the Western world and Navajo world, but it was also the Christian context and the cultural context there as well. So, yeah. Uh, so I, um, I did not grow up on the reservation and I didn't grow up in the church either. I was raised Catholic. So I kind of grew up in the church H church. Um, actually the, the Catholic church, I don't want to get too off topic, but the Catholic church has a pretty, um, heavy influence in autumn communities.
[00:15:53] And that has a lot to do with the history of how, uh, the Western world arrived to this area, the like Sonoran desert region. Um, You know, in, uh, it was around 1700 S uh, actually years before that, um, probably a hundred years before that when father Kino arrived. And so the Spaniards brought Catholicism and all of that to this region.
[00:16:22] So just all that to say, you know, Catholicism has a pretty heavy influence here in, um, in Southern Arizona and, um, I grew up. Let's see my, um, my mom and dad met in Hila river on the reservation. She she's originally from Wisconsin. She was in the area, uh, teaching and my dad was working in the school as well.
[00:16:46] They met and my dad, um, made the deliberate decision, I think, to, um, move off the reservation when he started this family, because. He had a pretty difficult life. And he was, um, I mean, just from what I can understand, uh, I lost my father, um, about two years ago, but from what I understand, uh, you know, his decision making his thinking was to get off the reservation, to give his family some distance between, um, all of the challenges that come with living on the reservation.
[00:17:23] Okay. And, um, So, so my brother, I have one brother younger than me and we, uh, we grew up in Casa Grande, Arizona, just south of the healer river, Indian community, auth reservation, also a border town, but smaller in size. Um, which also means I didn't really grow up with a lot of my traditions either. And so what I mean, one of the things I tell people often is, you know, it's, it's, uh, Been a journey for me to learn my culture and all of that later in life, you know, um, during, uh, later in high school college and after college, um, learning bits and pieces of the autumn language, learning a little bit about the, the history, the songs, the, uh, traditional stories, the traditional practices, um, all of that, you know, has come later in life.
[00:18:23] And so I've really enjoyed getting to learn that now. But a small part of me is sad that I wasn't able to learn that growing up because we lived, we lived off reservation when I was a kid. So, wow. It sounds like both for both of you, you've had to, you've both mentioned, like having to learn more about your heritage and culture later in life.
[00:18:46] Um, and, and you talked a little bit about why that is, but can you talk a little bit more, like why? I mean, why is that, is that something that's common right now with your generation? Uh, what are you finding as you're learning that and the difficulties with that? Yeah, I would say that it's, it's pretty common.
[00:19:06] Um, Someone has been fortunate to like, be raised by like elders and cultural teachers. Um, many of the people in my generation, we don't know the language. Um, we also don't know a lot of the teachings and a lot of that has to do with, you know, intentional decisions by our parents to get us educated outside of our communities.
[00:19:29] Um, and then also this push for education. So like, Um, education is huge in Indian country. So like when, when they say, you know, graduate high school and go to college. That doesn't mean that once they go to college, that they're able to come back home as easily. So once they're away at college, it's like they lose connection to the language.
[00:19:52] They lose connection to the ceremonies and things like that. So then while they're away at college, that something good is happening and they're getting educated, but they're also losing a lot of that cultural knowledge. And then there's also been, uh, Policies in place throughout, since like the sixties, uh, maybe a little earlier, um, where there are programs put in place for people to leave their reservation to get work.
[00:20:20] Um, so they were being moved to these major cities, like San Francisco to Phoenix and everything to get opportunities. To work off the reservation, but again, that meant leaving their land base. And then again, losing cultural knowledge, but you kind of see, um, a lot of a different dynamic happening in these urban areas where the, the people who are there, they start to try to reclaim.
[00:20:47] And so they build these, um, urban communities of natives where they're trying really hard to like, meet. Cultural knowledge. So even here in Phoenix, you have the Phoenix Indian center, which is a place that, um, a lot of native people gravitate towards you because they offer courses and programs and workshops for people to learn.
[00:21:08] Rug weaving or, um, language classes or singing classes and things like that. Um, and I, you see a resurgence of people being interested in that, because for so long, we've been told, um, in one way or another that our culture is bad and that we need to assimilate to American culture. Um, and one of those things.
[00:21:27] I knew we might talk about it later, but, uh, a significant part of that is boarding schools. So I don't know if Michelle has anything more to add to that. Um, yeah. Jump into the boarding school discussion because, um, do you, and do you mind definitely because the Roman really, um, what Chris is talking about, you know, we've been starved of our culture for a long time, and it really goes back to the boarding school policies that the federal government implemented, um, both here in the U S and Canada had had a similar programs.
[00:22:00] Um, and the idea behind these boarding schools was, um, uh, to. What was the phrase, kill the Indian, save the man. And so the idea was anything that is Indian or native American about this person is not worth saving it's irredeemable. And we're just going to make them like us and make them, um, you know, in, in the image of an American white man type thing and bring these Western teachings to them.
[00:22:30] And then we're going to make them like us. That's assimilation. And so, um, for, for generations, native people have been starved of their culture because it's, it's been stripped from them, you know, through, uh, children going to boarding school. They're not raised with their culture. And then when they come back, how, how are they to continue?
[00:22:50] Culture or carry that on or teach the next generation is very hard to do that when you have so many people lost to the boarding school system and that's kind of what happened. Um, I mean, I can say that's kind of what happened in my lineage. You know, I mean, my dad, even though he grew up on the reservation and he was, you know, very embedded in his community, He didn't have a lot of his culture and he, he grew up with the language and then he lost it.
[00:23:15] He forgot it because of, you know, just go into the Western schools, um, and being integrated into the greater society. So things like that, they, um, they do a lot of damage to, you know, uh, people's culture and that's, that's what has happened to us. Wow. And, uh, you know, that's a tragedy for sure. And I remember talking about boarding schools with you, um, a while ago, not too long ago.
[00:23:42] And you mentioned that you really didn't get to hear much about it from your parents, I believe and correct me if I'm wrong. Well, I think Carissa has a better, um, perspective on that. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, both my parents, they went to boarding school when they were younger. Um, and so my parents are 61 and 58 or 59 something, you know, somewhere around there.
[00:24:08] And, um, I'm 32 going to be 33 and only in the past two years, honestly, have they started to open up and tell me more about just. Um, instances that happened at the boarding school. And, um, I know that a lot of, um, the, the effects of it have been I've already felt them, like in the way that they raised me in the way that they, um, even the way that they related to each other.
[00:24:41] Um, there's a, like a huge breakdown in like, Emotional intelligence. Um, and just being able to like, you know, manage your emotions and deal with different things like that, that the boarding school took away. Um, because they weren't, they weren't out to teach that they were, it was like a military style school or school, if you can call it that many of us, you know, when we talk about boarding schools, we put it in quotes.
[00:25:07] Cause we were like, these were more like, um, prison camps. Like they were really just there to like. Again, there was a military style, um, institution there. They were beating kids. They were, um, there was a lot of like terrible things that were happening in these institutions. Um, and yet we label them as schools.
[00:25:31] And so a lot of that stuff that my parents have only just recently started to talk about his made me extend a lot more grace to them and just kind of understanding their story and where they're coming from. Um, but it comes out in interesting ways. And you know, my dad talked about, um, uh, teaching assistance that they had and these teaching assistants would.
[00:25:54] Um, be there in the classroom, but they'd also be there in the dorms at later. And one time he was talking to me about it and he said, I don't know why they, they call them teaching assistants. He said, all they ever did was beat me. And that really like broke my heart because it was like, it was such an honest statement.
[00:26:14] But it was something he had never expressed ever before. Wow. Um, so yeah, just, just until recently, my parents are opening up a little bit more about what it was like being in there. Uh, and I think because there's been a lot more. Discussion around boarding schools because of things that have happened over the summer.
[00:26:38] Um, they're just a little bit more willing to talk about it because it's sort of coming to the surface. Um, yeah. At least for the greater American society for native people, we've always known that this is the reality and that this is what's been going on, but only this past summer, have they made, um, discoveries of mass graves that were next to residential schools in Canada and then boarding schools here in America.
[00:27:02] And so it's been really eye opening for a lot of people. Um, and then sort of, I don't know what the word is. For native people. It's like finally, like finally people are seeing our reality and our only hope is that people see the reality and that they acknowledge like that. This is that this is something that is truly.
[00:27:30] Uh, impactful, like to our, our, our communities, to our wellbeing and to the reason why, you know, there's, there's a lot of issues that are going on in our communities as well. Um, you know, things like substance abuse or, uh, domestic abuse, things like that. They don't, they, they, they come there, they exist in, so.
[00:27:56] Great and mounts on the reservation, but nobody asks why they mostly just say, oh, look at like how terrible it is. But they never stopped and questioned, like, why is it like that? And they never go back to like these, these policies and, um, the, the boarding schools and how they've basically corrupted an entire generation.
[00:28:17] Um, actually two generations, I believe. So if you meet a native person, they'd say this a lot, like on social media and everything. If you need a native person. A basically any native person you meet is either a survivor of boarding schools, um, the child of a survivor or a grandchild or of a survivor, because we've all been affected by it in one way or another.
[00:28:43] Um, I think, yeah, w and, and I mean, really the, the silver lining of, you know, discovering these mass graves, which is just awful. You think about these are children, you know, babies that. We're taken oftentimes from their homes and never returned. Um, I was going to ask how young, like they often were taken from.
[00:29:01] I mean, I don't know whether as young as three, uh, they were just, you know, very, very young. Um, and this was, you know, the government instituting these policies policies. So, uh, but the silver lining of finding these mass graves is a lot of these communities are finding healing through. Uh, and closure through the discovery of these graves where they can say, okay, we, we knew that, you know, our baby went missing or something like that.
[00:29:28] And now we have, uh, some sense of closure and, um, the, the first discovery. That I was aware of visit Kamloops, um, in Canada. And after that, a lot of, uh, native communities were like, Hey, we need to look at this school and this school and this school. And they started to find all these mass graves at other boarding schools as well.
[00:29:49] Um, cam Lou, Susan is in Canada. So that's a residential school in the U S the Khan boarding schools, but same idea. And as indigenous communities started to, um, uncover these grapes, uh, you know, they. They got a sense of closure and they started to take it perform ceremonies for the loved ones that they lost.
[00:30:11] And you asked about, you know, like, um, rediscovering our culture. That's a huge part of it. Again, I can't speak for everybody. I know, but I, you notice a lot of, um, like language revitalization programs that have started up because native people are saying, you know, oh, I know a few words from when I was a kid.
[00:30:30] I really want to learn my language, you know, uh, same thing with storytelling and in a lot of communities, they have songs that you sing, you know? And so there's a lot of programs on within tribal communities where they're, um, self-generating these, uh, revitalization programs. Um, and teaching as, you know, the young ones, even like, you know, two and three and four years old in a what, where they call that headstart, you know, teaching them the language early so that they can learn it easier and carry it on.
[00:31:02] So that's, I mean, it's, it's terrible to think about, you know, all of the damage. The boarding school system did and the loss of culture in native communities, but it's really encouraging for me now to see all of the re revitalization efforts and the learning that's going on. So I'm encouraged by it and I'm hopeful for the next generation.
[00:31:23] Yeah. I want to just add to that. Um, something more personal, I guess, to both me and Mikael, um, because we found out about the. The mass graves, I believe at the end of may. Um, so the very beginning of the summer, that's when we found out, um, and it was really hard. So, um, trying to like, keep my composure through this.
[00:31:47] It was really hard to like, hear about that. And then just, uh, just a few weeks later, um, McKayla and I found out that we're pregnant and that we're gonna have a baby. And I think that added to like the grief. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's a celebration. We're going to have a baby and it's, it's exciting, but it started to make me think really deeply about like, what that must have felt like to, to lose your child, you know, to like, to like have somebody coming from the government or from the church and Steve.
[00:32:30] Your baby and take them away and then to not see them for, you know, one or two years, and then, and then maybe not see them again and not know why. And so it was really difficult over the summer when people would ask like, Hey, what are your thoughts on this? And, you know, I was like, I'm not in a space to like talk about this because I was still really like processing and grieving, um, and trying to figure out how.
[00:32:56] To reconcile all these feelings that I had, uh, because of that. But now, you know, we're about halfway through and we're going to, we keep talking about just what we're so excited to like teach them because whether the things we weren't able to do when we were younger and we think we just were so hopeful about like, you know, building a cradle board for our baby or, um, getting.
[00:33:23] Doing their first laugh ceremony, just things like that. You know, it just makes me so excited because then I'm like, this is what this was. This was all about, you know, like, um, that's like when I see hope where I'm like, I'm, I'm now in a position where. I'm not going to allow my child to ever be told that they can't embrace their culture, that they can't learn their language, or, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm in a position where I can empower them and make them feel.
[00:33:58] Confident in who they are as an indigenous person, because I never had that when I was younger. So I think that that's so exciting and something to look forward to now. Um, and yeah, we're constantly just excited about the things that we get to teach our child. Thank you so much for sharing. Like that, that means a lot to me that you're you feel comfortable to, to share that here?
[00:34:20] And I, I think it matters a lot to the people listening as well. And if it doesn't, I'm sorry for them. And they're like, because that's so powerful and I'm really happy that you get that opportunity to, um, and that, uh, maybe it's getting a little bit better. I know that we are just scratching the surface on, um, What has happened in the us and Western society in general for indigenous people and nations.
[00:34:47] I know we've just barely touched it. Um, but I want, I want to ask another question and, uh, this is something I think we've kind of talked about too, is like, it can be, and you just mentioned it too. It can be really exhausting. Constantly to be asked questions and tiring. And especially if maybe it doesn't seem like it's coming from a sincere place.
[00:35:09] And, uh, you mentioned that that has happened a lot over the last year with all these things that are going on. Um, what are some good ones? I know, you're not asking people not to ask you questions at all, like, but what are some good ways people can educate themselves and go deeper. Now that we've scratched the surface and they're interested, like how do they go deeper?
[00:35:29] Um, are there any resources that you recommend, any books that you recommend to learn more about the indigenous perspective? Um, I love to learn more. I say this, um, um, we're happy to talk about this kind of stuff, uh, to, to share people, but you're right. What we mostly encourage is folks to educate themselves to learn more on their own.
[00:35:53] Um, so if you can, you know, take the time to read a book, listen to a podcast, things like that. Um, when I, uh, For example, the healer of Indian community has resources on their website. So, I mean, if you Google healer river, we can probably spell it on the screen. Right? G I L a healer river. There you go. They have resources on their website that talk about their history, you know, and tells about how, you know, we've been here since time and Memorial.
[00:36:21] Our ancestors, um, built the canal system that even we use still today, uh, salt river project SRP uses, um, There's all that history is available online, really with a Google search. Uh, so those kinds of things are easy if you know that. That's in your area, Google them find their website if they have it.
[00:36:43] And you can, you can look up some history there. If you don't know what tribes are in your area. There's another website that we often use our recommended people. It's native-land.ca. Okay. That website will, it brings up a map and you can go to where you are in the map. And it'll tell you what tribes are in your area.
[00:37:03] Wow. Or has historically been there? Um, another, uh, Resource. So I recently read a book, uh, called braiding Sweetgrass, which just knocked my socks off. I really love it. It's by an indigenous author. She's Pottawatomie. Her name is Robin Dr. Robin wall Kimra she's a botanist and she blends in, in this book.
[00:37:26] It's a, she blends science and traditional teachings into this beautiful storytelling. Um, And it's really great to learn a little bit about, um, different tribes cultures, but also the history and then the science of how they engage with the natural world. Yeah. Um, God's creation. So I really love that book and I recommend it to anybody who's interested.
[00:37:49] Um, do you have some, so for anyone who's local to Phoenix, um, there's the heard museum and they actually have a really great exhibit on the boarding schools. So if you want to learn more about that, That's definitely a great place to go, but then even some of the surrounding tribes have their own cultural museums.
[00:38:08] Um, and they're really awesome. They're really great. They have different events that are open to the public as well. Like even storytelling events so that you can learn more about their culture. Um, obviously once COVID has calmed down, um, they're going to open that up more, but yeah. The, yeah, I would recommend going to the gum museum in heritage center is just south of wild horse pass.
[00:38:34] Yes. And then they have one on salt river as well. And then I think there's the. Um, Pueblo Grande museum, right in central Phoenix as well. So there's a lot of resources locally. And then, um, on social media, I just wanted to highlight one, um, account they're called illuminating. And they're working really hard to change, um, or correct the narrative of native people, especially in mainstream media and they're doing a really good job.
[00:39:08] They're raising a lot of important issues. Um, and when it comes to like news reports, uh, film and television and different things like that. And so that's a really good account to follow because they're all constantly educating people. Um, You know, native people and putting them in a positive light rather than, um, stereotypical or negative light.
[00:39:30] So, um, those, those are really good resources and there's plenty more, um, there's plenty, more books and everything, but that will keep it at that you dip your toe into all those. We'll, we'll include as many links to websites as we can in the show notes. So go look there. If they're not there, you can look on your own so you can do it.
[00:39:50] Thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate getting to hear your perspective and be able to record it here on the podcast and share with our audience. I'm just praying that, that we continue to broaden our perspective for those of us who don't have this, this experience in our lives at all. Um, this is, I hope it's an eye-opening, uh, podcast for you and it has been helpful for you.
[00:40:11] Um, the, I think that's it for today. I mean, I would love to talk for hours and I have with you guys before I've talked for hours. Um, but I last people don't listen for hours, so we're going to stop it here for today, but maybe we'll have you on again someday. Um, And, uh, yeah, for those of you who are still listening, please consider giving us a review on iTunes that might help you help get the word out about this and, and help more people hear what we're doing here at, beyond the lines.
[00:40:37] And just listening to people's stories. Also tell somebody, tell your friend, tell your friend about this episode. If you think that they would really learn from it as well, share it out. Thank you so much for joining us today. For the beyond the lines podcast, we record here at central Christian Church and the.
[00:40:51] Arizona valley. And our church is pursuing the mantra of love beyond which calls us to empathize with people who are different and build bridges of peace. If you're interested at all in learning more about our church, check us out@centraleasy.com. We have online services as well as a bunch of locations in the Phoenix Metro area.
[00:41:07] If you're local, we'll see you at next time's episode of beyond the lines until then start loving beyond your lines. Thank you guys. Thanks Jonathan. Thank you.